Rescues and bouyancy control

[Genesis]

You can't bring a toxing/toxed diver up in the water column until he resumes breathing.

If you do, you will severely injure or kill him.

BTW, what GUE teaches on this is RADICALLY different than what is taught by the other agencies. What I was taught in my Nitrox class was that if the diver ejects the regulator you take him to the surface NOW, as he's probably dead regardless (!) I challenged that "protocol" in class, by the way.. the answer was yes, trying to solve the problem has merit, but the agency teaching was "if the reg is out of his mouth, the odds of survival are nearly zero."

Needless to say I don't have quite the fatalistic view of it that SSI and PADI have on this, and if I see someone tox I'm going to attempt to manage the situation rather than condemn them to death by shooting them to the surface.

I may fail, but I will try.

We're back to "how do you figure out what to do if you come upon an apparently-unconscious diver at depth, and did not witness the original episode that got him in trouble", I think...

 

[Scuba]

Thanks for the info UP,

Based on the issues raised in this thread, I have the following questions. None of them apply to a convulsing diver.

Is it possible to identify wether a diver who appears to be unconscious is in fact unconscious or in a tonic state? One will have his airway open the other possibly shut.

Is there a simple manuver, such as subdiaphragmatic abdominal thrusts given in a choking situation, that could be administered to open the airway if it is shut.

Could this at least release some gas decreasing the chance of pulmonary overpressure problems and making immediate controlled surfacing procedures possible?

If this or another procedure is helpful, would applying it to an unconcious diver with open airway cause additional harm?

 

[Nessie]

Try to put your chin to the chest, you can still breathe, the airway is still open. [/B]

Yes and no
I can, but for an unconscious person it is not unlikely that the tongue slips back and closes the airway, I thought

 

[John C. Ratliff]

I don't think there is enough information in the original post to really answer this question about the weight belt. We don't know the depth at which this incident might take place, and whether or not this is a NITROX diver. Therefore, it would be hard to say what the correct response would be.

We also do not know the medical state of the individual. A person who "blacks out" from a cardiac problem is in a different state than is one who has suffered a convulsion from oxygen toxicity. You cannot assume oxygen toxicity because of the convulsion. I've had occasion to dive in biological survey work with a diver who suffered from epilepsy, for instance. It wasn't my choice either.

For someone suffering oxygen toxicity, moving that diver to a shallower depth could help a great deal without the potential for barotrauma (Dr. Deco, please weigh in here) if you are moving him/her from say 200 feet to 150 feet. We are going fro 7 atm absolute to 5 atm ambsolute, which would expand the air from 1/7 to 1/5 of atmospheric pressure. I don't think this would cause the barotrauma that going from 3 atm absolute to the surface at 1 atm absolute would cause, so we have to be careful how we discuss this situation. Moving the person in O2 toxicity to a shallower depth could have dramatic effects, assuming the regulator is in place, etc.

One other thing needs to be considered--what is the condition of the rescuer. If the rescuer is within no-decompression limits, then a resuce to the surface is much more feasible than for a decompression diver.

This doesn't answer the question above, but may provide some more insight into the problem. I'm not anymore an expert in these questions, but think the whole situation needs to be defined a bit better.

SeaRat

 

[Uncle Pug]

John C. Ratliff once bubbled...
For someone suffering oxygen toxicity, moving that diver to a shallower depth could help a great deal without the potential for barotrauma (Dr. Deco, please weigh in here) if you are moving him/her from say 200 feet to 150 feet.

read this post here

 

[John C. Ratliff]

Uncle Pug,

I have read this post, but my understanding of O2 toxicity is that the person may not stop seizing until the pressure is lessened. That's what I want Dr. Decon to weigh in on. I'm not saying to bring the person to the surface, but lessen the depth to a small degree. The pressure differences probably are not enough to cause an embolism, and the lessening of pressure could potentially (from my limited knowledge of diving physiology) relieve the siezure symptoms.

SeaRat

 

[Uncle Pug]

Hopefully he will jump in here when he can.

AFAIK an oxtox seizure will abate even if the patient's PO2 is not reduced and that it will likely recure even if the PO2 is reduced.

In otherwords, managing the seizure at depth until it subsides before attempting to ascend and then being ready to stop the ascent should another seizure begin is the best course of action.

This is different than narcosis where reducing the PN2 has an immediate effect.

 

[Dr Deco]

Dear John:

Oxygen seizures

In hyperbaric medicine, where seizures have been known to occur, the practice is NOT to reduce the pressure until the seizure is over. They are self limiting - probably because one is not breathing and the oxygen is metabolized.

Patients with a seizure have been depressurized (long ago), and they have died.:boom:

Dr Deco :doctor:

 

[John C. Ratliff]

Dr. Deco and Uncle Pug,

I was looking for the underlying physiological reasoning behind the recommendation not to depressurize the person. Thanks, that is a logical explaination.

John

 

[YorkDiver]

Having no experience with oxtox, how bad of a seizure would be person be having?

Is it like epilepsy where it can vary and if so could they have a mild enough seizure that you may miss it if you don't know what to look for?