Resort's " New Normal " Rule - No AIR 2 or diving your long hose

[Edward3c]

Remember, part of using the long hose as the primary, and primary donate, requires an S drill.
The S drill is performed at the start of the dive, normally at 6m, donate then re-stow.

It's actually a procedure adaptable to rebreather diving, and not a bad idea with mixed teams. Donate the bailout regulator at the start, then re-stow. It reinforces the OOG / bailout procedures, and confirms everything is working.

When running BSAC’s Buoyancy & Trim Workshop candidates are encouraged to dive their normal configuration. Less than half who are ‘hog looped’ can provide evidence of their training, generally those that can’t don’t have a proper setup. (I dive occasionally with the local GUI instructor and participate in the local project run by GUI).

 

[The Chairman]

Less than half who are ‘hog looped’ can provide evidence of their training,

How much training do you need? It's a hose. A preference.

 

[Edward3c]

How much training do you need? It's a hose. A preference.

To meet BSAC’s insurance, I need to see where in the syllabus; or annotated on the student’s training record; primary donate with a long hose (hog loop) was assessed.

 

[KenGordon]

How much training do you need? It's a hose. A preference.

There is diving a long hose and then there is diving a hog loop. One is a preference and the other a technique.

For example training includes the S-drill. There is not a diagram on the bag that the hose comes in explaining that.

 

[The Chairman]

To meet BSAC’s insurance, I need to see where in the syllabus; or annotated on the student’s training record; primary donate with a long hose (hog loop) was assessed.

All of my OW students learn on a 7' hose. I don't believe that's annotated anywhere. So, you would force them into a system they weren't trained on??? Kinda "wow!". That's mindless bureaucracy to me. I've had two students move to a more traditional hose routing without the need for any additional training. Can you cite BSAC literature that requires you to see the syllabus for a long hose??? I would really like to read that and any justification they have for it.

There is diving a long hose and then there is diving a hog loop. One is a preference and the other a technique.

I've only seen one person, my best friend, that dives a long hose without looping it around their neck. 6 months before I took cavern, I put one on my rig (H-Valve) just to get used to it. I was on the back of a boat, trying to figure out how to loop it. The captain sniggered a bit, and deftly showed me how to loop and deploy it. 3 or 4 dives later, I actually had to deploy it while on a down line. If I had any doubts before that they were gone. The donee was below me on the line and the long hose made it easy. In cavern, I learned the best way to deploy it as well as other incidentals concerning its use... while in a cavern/cave. I didn't really need to know that in OW. Now, I do believe that everything you learn in cave/cavern or any overhead is useful in OW. The converse is not true.

 

[KenGordon]

All of my OW students learn on a 7' hose. I don't believe that's annotated anywhere. So, you would force them into a system they weren't trained on??? Kinda "wow!". That's mindless bureaucracy to me. I've had two students move to a more traditional hose routing without the need for any additional training. Can you cite BSAC literature that requires you to see the syllabus for a long hose??? I would really like to read that and any justification they have for it.

I've only seen one person, my best friend, that dives a long hose without looping it around their neck. 6 months before I took cavern, I put one on my rig (H-Valve) just to get used to it. I was on the back of a boat, trying to figure out how to loop it. The captain sniggered a bit, and deftly showed me how to loop and deploy it. 3 or 4 dives later, I actually had to deploy it while on a down line. If I had any doubts before that they were gone. The donee was below me on the line and the long hose made it easy. In cavern, I learned the best way to deploy it as well as other incidentals concerning its use... while in a cavern/cave. I didn't really need to know that in OW. Now, I do believe that everything you learn in cave/cavern or any overhead is useful in OW. The converse is not true.

So you teach a technique you have not had formal training in yourself? Or is that what you mean by ‘in cavern’?

See https://www.bsac.com/document/guide-to-welcoming-gue-divers/guide-to-welcoming-gue-divers.pdf

And BSAC's Safe Diving guide which is the definitive document.

There is other stuff which was from before the GUE thing which said you needed formal training, such as Intro To Tech.

Also, everything in cavern/cave training is useful in open water? Surely there is some stuff about navigation, using bits of horizontal string and stuff, that isn’t generally applicable outside of an overhead? Maybe line laying from a shot to ensure return to shot I suppose...

 

[loosenit2]

So you teach a technique you have not had formal training in yourself? Or is that what you mean by ‘in cavern’?

See https://www.bsac.com/document/guide-to-welcoming-gue-divers/guide-to-welcoming-gue-divers.pdf

And BSAC's Safe Diving guide which is the definitive document.

There is other stuff which was from before the GUE thing which said you needed formal training, such as Intro To Tech.

Also, everything in cavern/cave training is useful in open water? Surely there is some stuff about navigation, using bits of horizontal string and stuff, that isn’t generally applicable outside of an overhead? Maybe line laying from a shot to ensure return to shot I suppose...

and the lawyers take over the world once again. I have never had formal documented training on properly hammering a nail into a wall or cutting a piece of wood with a saw but I somehow manage. Using a long hose and primary donate are not difficult, just like o to donate they just require routine practice and skills maintenance. Seems to me the BSAC guidelines above are more concerned with Legal liability then safe practices.

 

[KenGordon]

and the lawyers take over the world once again. I have never had formal documented training on properly hammering a nail into a wall or cutting a piece of wood with a saw but I somehow manage. Using a long hose and primary donate are not difficult, just like o to donate they just require routine practice and skills maintenance. Seems to me the BSAC guidelines above are more concerned with Legal liability then safe practices.

You expect to hurt other people when incompetently hammering nails? Do you never do real nail hammering to see how it turns out or just assume that never having had to hammer a real nail or cut real wood, under stress, you would do as good a job as someone who has been trained?

In the U.K. it is really hard to end up being prosecuted or sued over injury caused by incompetent diving. The last example I can take think of, which killed a student at a commercial school, resulted in a fine of about £15000. On the other hand, all the people involved actually do go diving. They have family and friend said that go diving. You bump into them on boats, going diving. Why would you think they were not genuinely interested in safety?

Basically the guidelines are not to do stuff you are not competent to do. How to establish competence? Show you were trained by a recognised organisation. Is that unreasonable?

The alternative is “you are good if Ken says so”. And what makes Ken able to judge?

 

[loosenit2]

You expect to hurt other people when incompetently hammering nails? Do you never do real nail hammering to see how it turns out or just assume that never having had to hammer a real nail or cut real wood, under stress, you would do as good a job as someone who has been trained?

In the U.K. it is really hard to end up being prosecuted or sued over injury caused by incompetent diving. The last example I can take think of, which killed a student at a commercial school, resulted in a fine of about £15000. On the other hand, all the people involved actually do go diving. They have family and friend said that go diving. You bump into them on boats, going diving. Why would you think they were not genuinely interested in safety?

Basically the guidelines are not to do stuff you are not competent to do. How to establish competence? Show you were trained by a recognized organisation. Is that unreasonable?

The alternative is “you are good if Ken says so”. And what makes Ken able to judge?

If I am qualified to operate a hammer with my left hand am I qualified to operate a hammer with my right hand? And yes incompetent hammering could lead to injury in others, a wall falling down, a tool flying out of your hand etc etc. But the likelyhood is very low.

What we are talking about here is not SCUBA skills, it is equipment configuration choices that have no impact on knowledge and minimal impact on skills. Another example might be switching to a BP/W from a Jacket style BCD. A BP/W it is a little different, the use of a crotch strap changes some procedure, but I have not seen anyone say that you need formal training to switch from a jacket to a BP/W, it is a relatively simple equipment configuration change that can be learned from reading and experience.

I value formal training, but lets not require formal training for things that it is simply not needed for, lets save it for the things that truly are important.

And I am not saying that BSAC is not concerned with safety, what I specifically said was that document reads as being more concerned with liability than safety.

 

[Edward3c]

and the lawyers take over the world once again. I have never had formal documented training on properly hammering a nail into a wall or cutting a piece of wood with a saw but I somehow manage. Using a long hose and primary donate are not difficult, just like o to donate they just require routine practice and skills maintenance. Seems to me the BSAC guidelines above are more concerned with Legal liability then safe practices.

I work for a 2nd-tier vehicle manufacturer. Before anyone is allowed to put a screw or bolt onto a vehicle we have to hold documented evidence they competence has been assessed to use the tools. If we didn't the :
* vehicles wouldn’t comply with Type Approval, and
* company would be wide open to 'ambulance chasing' lawyers (an import from the US).

Why should diving instruction be any different.

How BSAC members configure their kit outside training dives is their liability, not BSAC’s.