"Riding your Computer Up" vs. "Lite Deco"

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Tourist diver or not, my fundamental objection to the NDL pablum that the OW/AOW agencies proffer is rooted in the obvious dereliction duty to continue seamless dive education. Deco is verboten until the OW/AOW diver chooses to flip his/her own switch and then be welcomed as an incoming tech diver?


Here you have a conundrum. In the rec world with normal agencies, when would you bring Deco into the curriculum?

As discussed BSAC do it at sports diver BUT There are many more hours of tuition to complete Ocean Diver and Sports Diver For instance Ocean diver requires 5 OW dives (120 mins min) and 4 further experience dives for sign off. Sports divers has another 9 dives and requires 150 mins underwater post Ocean diver.

The commercial agencies - for reasons of commerce i.e. customers driving down the price thus course times need to be reduced - don't get that level of training. You can complete OW + AOW in 8-9 dives

So where would you put deco training into rec diving (taught by the commercial agencies?)

Stand alone course another course?
Should DM's be taught it?

Or is the logical thing push it over in to the Technical training where you can bundle it with the other skills? As is done at teh moment

If it were a stand alone course, then it would have to review and correct buoyancy control - keep within a window around the deco ceiling etc etc?

I don't know the answer, just putting the question out there
 
Maybe AOW ought to be a bit 'Advanced'?
But t really it impossible. Also it suits resorts etc to ban deco. This may not be a mistake as telling vast numbers of tourist divers who can't remember how to plan a dive that doing deco is ok is likely to lead to extra injury.

It comes down to having diving as a tourist activity.
 
It comes down to having diving as a tourist activity.
When I did a liveaboard on the Great Barrier Reef a couple years ago, the crew member in charge of diving made a couple statements that limited the depths of our dives and when we could do our last dive before leaving the boat the next morning on a tiny little plane that would take us to the mainland. He said both were PADI rules they had no choice but to follow. All the other crew members listening to those rules were PADI instructors, so at least some of them had to know he was flat out lying. I decided not to make a scene, but each time I asked him about it privately. He admitted that he knew they were not PADI rules--they were company rules.

It was pretty obvious why. Having a customer get bent creates a lot of problems for them. That would be true of all dive operations. They absolutely, positively do not want bent divers and all the trouble that brings. They therefore create rules to make getting bent as unlikely as they can.
 
In fact once the safety stop "ceiling" has cleared you could either stay there indefinitely or even return to depth? I would imagine though that the NDL at that point would be extemely short since the surface interval is essentially zero.

I'm pretty sure you should not return to any significant depth since your NDL would be right back to almost nothing as well as creating quite a sawtooth profile.
 
In the rec world with normal agencies, when would you bring Deco into the curriculum?

If it were a stand alone course, then it would have to review and correct buoyancy control - keep within a window around the deco ceiling etc etc?

The problem with most agency curriculums is that they don't continually assess and progress diver ability, especially in respect to fundamental skills.

BSAC has a tacit assessment system, based on diving frequently in a club environment that includes on-going mentoring with club instructors.

Agencies like GUE have benchmark assessments (i.e. Fundies), along with further formal assessments at each training level.

Whether tacit or formal, systems of progressively rigorous competency assessment serve to ensure that diver ability actually increases in-line with qualification progression.

The mainstream recreational curriculum doesn't have any tangible ability assessment process as qualification level rises.

Beyond the dubious performance standards for fundamental skills assessed at OW level, the diving student can progress through every course in the recreational curriculum and never expect to have their fundamental competencies tested for continuation or progression.

After OW qualification, the next time that fundamental competencies are formally assessed isn't until DM (Pro) or technical training.

Even Pro assessments aren't of a higher ability level than what OW students need to achieve.

Yes, they're 'demonstration quality', as opposed to mere 'mastery', but the parameters of the assessed skills don't change.

For instance, a DM or instructor doesn't ever have to perform the 'hover' for longer duration or within finer depth tolerances than an OW student would...

This, of course, leads to a situation where there are zero ability-based limitations on continuation training through the entire mainstream curriculum of courses.

Put simply, the diver needn't ever concern themselves with actually 'getting better' before enrolling upon, and graduating from, any course throughout the recreational syllabus.

There's no assessment-stimulated motivation for the diver to practice and develop themselves in preparation for further training. There's not even a motivation to maintain basic OW skills.

In their defence, with no progressively stringent assessments provided, the diver can be forgiven for not even knowing, or considering, what improved fundamental competency consists of.

The classic smoke-screen of "get more experience", is used to justify this lack of competency training/assessment... as if "getting experience" somehow absolves agencies and instructors from creating tangible improvements to fundamental skills.

"Ah... you're qualified for AOW, Rescue, Nitrox, Wreck, Navigation, Night diving... and you've done Peak Performance Buoyancy training.... but you still have non-existent fundamental skills?

You need to go away and get 'EXPERIENCE'

It's your fault, not ours.
Anyway, you should sign up for a Deep Diver course now
".​

We see the results of this through 'highly qualified' divers who nonetheless possess little actual diving ability.

This lack of assessment creates a situation whereby no assumptions can be made about diver ability on the basis of their certification level.

This is also true of 'experience'. Experience is too variable to use as an accurate predictor of diver competency. Experience based on flawed fundamentals and zero rectifying skill assessments can just as easily lead to negative, rather than positive, competency development.

Hence, we have dive operations that demand check-out dives and/or impose strict limits on what they'll enable customer divers to do.

This is why decompression diving cannot currently exist in mainstream recreational diving.

This is also why decompression training is currently reserved to 'technical diving' levels... where, finally, the diver is subjected to tangible ability/competency assessments.

The mainstream recreational curriculum 'never says no' to divers based on any formal competency assessment. It doesn't stop anyone enrolling on any course they desire and it doesn't stop them qualifying either.

Because the system "doesn't say no" based on assessed competency... it has to balance risk by "saying no" in respect to permitted activities. i.e. no deco.

The crux of the issue is that decompression diving training demands an assessed level of competency.

Of course, many divers want their cake and to eat it also.

They enjoy carefree progression in a mainstream recreational curriculum that doesn't impede them in any way based on their (un)demonstrated and (un)assessed competency.

Yet, they also want to be empowered to partake in aggressive or advanced diving practices, in which increased risks demand proven, reliable and assessed competencies.

Perhaps divers just get too familiar with mainstream agencies 'never saying no' and it leads to false assumptions that the restrictions applied to them are entirely superficial ('Put Another Dollar In' etc) and not the result of having enjoyed an limitless rise through a curriculum which at no time asks them to improve and demonstrate fundamental competencies.
 
The problem with most agency curriculums is that they don't continually assess and progress diver ability, especially in respect to fundamental skills.

BSAC has a tacit assessment system, based on diving frequently in a club environment that includes on-going mentoring with club instructors.

Agencies like GUE have benchmark assessments (i.e. Fundies), along with further formal assessments at each training level.

Whether tacit or formal, systems of progressively rigorous competency assessment serve to ensure that diver ability actually increases in-line with qualification progression.

The mainstream recreational curriculum doesn't have any tangible ability assessment process as qualification level rises.

Beyond the dubious performance standards for fundamental skills assessed at OW level, the diving student can progress through every course in the recreational curriculum and never expect to have their fundamental competencies tested for continuation or progression.

After OW qualification, the next time that fundamental competencies are formally assessed isn't until DM (Pro) or technical training.

Even Pro assessments aren't of a higher ability level than what OW students need to achieve.

Yes, they're 'demonstration quality', as opposed to mere 'mastery', but the parameters of the assessed skills don't change.

For instance, a DM or instructor doesn't ever have to perform the 'hover' for longer duration or within finer depth tolerances than an OW student would...

This, of course, leads to a situation where there are zero ability-based limitations on continuation training through the entire mainstream curriculum of courses.

Put simply, the diver needn't ever concern themselves with actually 'getting better' before enrolling upon, and graduating from, any course throughout the recreational syllabus.

There's no assessment-stimulated motivation for the diver to practice and develop themselves in preparation for further training. There's not even a motivation to maintain basic OW skills.

In their defence, with no progressively stringent assessments provided, the diver can be forgiven for not even knowing, or considering, what improved fundamental competency consists of.

The classic smoke-screen of "get more experience", is used to justify this lack of competency training/assessment... as if "getting experience" somehow absolves agencies and instructors from creating tangible improvements to fundamental skills.

"Ah... you're qualified for AOW, Rescue, Nitrox, Wreck, Navigation, Night diving... and you've done Peak Performance Buoyancy training.... but you still have non-existent fundamental skills?

You need to go away and get 'EXPERIENCE'

It's your fault, not ours.
Anyway, you should sign up for a Deep Diver course now
".​

We see the results of this through 'highly qualified' divers who nonetheless possess little actual diving ability.

This lack of assessment creates a situation whereby no assumptions can be made about diver ability on the basis of their certification level.

This is also true of 'experience'. Experience is too variable to use as an accurate predictor of diver competency. Experience based on flawed fundamentals and zero rectifying skill assessments can just as easily lead to negative, rather than positive, competency development.

Hence, we have dive operations that demand check-out dives and/or impose strict limits on what they'll enable customer divers to do.

This is why decompression diving cannot currently exist in mainstream recreational diving.

This is also why decompression training is currently reserved to 'technical diving' levels... where, finally, the diver is subjected to tangible ability/competency assessments.

The mainstream recreational curriculum 'never says no' to divers based on any formal competency assessment. It doesn't stop anyone enrolling on any course they desire and it doesn't stop them qualifying either.

Because the system "doesn't say no" based on assessed competency... it has to balance risk by "saying no" in respect to permitted activities. i.e. no deco.

The crux of the issue is that decompression diving training demands an assessed level of competency.

Of course, many divers want their cake and to eat it also.

They enjoy carefree progression in a mainstream recreational curriculum that doesn't impede them in any way based on their (un)demonstrated and (un)assessed competency.

Yet, they also want to be empowered to partake in aggressive or advanced diving practices, in which increased risks demand proven, reliable and assessed competencies.

Perhaps divers just get too familiar with mainstream agencies 'never saying no' and it leads to false assumptions that the restrictions applied to them are entirely superficial ('Put Another Dollar In' etc) and not the result of having enjoyed an limitless rise through a curriculum which at no time asks them to improve and demonstrate fundamental competencies.
Thank you DD. I suspect you have said this same thing many times in the past but it is perhaps the best post I have read in describing the current state of "training" in this sport. I am currently going through this and from the first class I recognized that the training programs are designed to funnel wallets into the system without taking responsibility for the competency or understanding of the student. OW gets you to the point where you "may" be qualified to get in the water and follow somebody around but there is no way for that somebody to know if you even understand the effect of pressure on your BCD until you sink away from them on descent or float away uncontrolled to the surface on the first significant ascent.

To be fair, they seem to admit that their certification only allows you to start to get the experience needed to develop your fundamental skills and that you should continue to practice those. The drills that are no longer used in OW training probably added to a students competency but at some increased risk of student injury and some increased risk of student dropout. The problem is that those drills are not likely to be done later by the new diver on their own so unless they go technical they are never done. The upside if there is one is that currently, personal responsibility and freedom is the ruling paradigm and as long as students know that they truly are taking their life into their own hands and continue to learn what they don't know, then it works in a libertarian compromise fashion. "you are your own scuba cop"

I suspect that the current system serves to funnel the most people into the sport possible with the fewest serious injuries that can be blamed on the training system. I will be watching closely over the coming years to confirm or dispel this opinion.
 
To be fair, they seem to admit that their certification only allows you to start to get the experience needed to develop your fundamental skills and that you should continue to practice those. The drills that are no longer used in OW training probably added to a students competency but at some increased risk of student injury and some increased risk of student dropout. The problem is that those drills are not likely to be done later by the new diver on their own so unless they go technical they are never done. The upside if there is one is that currently, personal responsibility and freedom is the ruling paradigm and as long as students know that they truly are taking their life into their own hands and continue to learn what they don't know, then it works in a libertarian compromise fashion. "you are your own scuba cop"

I don't think DevonDiver is talking about skills which are above and beyond those you should be being taught on your first level OW course. Actually being able to clear a mask, hold a desired depth, not smash into the bottom, not pop to the surface, not fin constantly while vertical to maintain depth, know where their buddy is, know how much gas the dive will require, provide or receive gas and make an ascent. If you come away from a course with problems in those areas (and many people exhibit those problems) then what did you pay for?

The taught skills have not changed much for a long time, at least with BSAC the main change has been packaging - splitting a course in two to make initially going diving faster. Nothing you do in dive training at any level should have significant risk of injury, things (other than CESA and maybe buddy breathing) are not left out for that reason. It is all about time.

Do libertarians call for making decisions on subjects which you know nothing about? I honestly don't know but I can tell you that expecting a new diver to make decisions outside of their training is a mistake. So the question is how wide is that training and how much sticks such that the diver can make informed decisions?

The hardest question is "Am I good enough?".
 
I don't think DevonDiver is talking about skills which are above and beyond those you should be being taught on your first level OW course. Actually being able to clear a mask, hold a desired depth, not smash into the bottom, not pop to the surface, not fin constantly while vertical to maintain depth, know where their buddy is, know how much gas the dive will require, provide or receive gas and make an ascent. If you come away from a course with problems in those areas (and many people exhibit those problems) then what did you pay for?

The taught skills have not changed much for a long time, at least with BSAC the main change has been packaging - splitting a course in two to make initially going diving faster. Nothing you do in dive training at any level should have significant risk of injury, things (other than CESA and maybe buddy breathing) are not left out for that reason. It is all about time.

Do libertarians call for making decisions on subjects which you know nothing about? I honestly don't know but I can tell you that expecting a new diver to make decisions outside of their training is a mistake. So the question is how wide is that training and how much sticks such that the diver can make informed decisions?

The hardest question is "Am I good enough?".

You can and should learn all those things in your OW course. The problem as I see it and as I think as DD does as well is that you can pass your OW without demonstrating mastery or even an understanding of all those skills. One skill I suspected was left out for safety but perhaps I am mistaken was the drill of removing your BC, leaving it on the bottom of the pool, surfacing and then going back to retrieve it. Am I wrong about that? Didn't they also have more stress drills once upon a time, such as unexpected mask removal and the like?

Yes, libertarians do call for making decisions on subjects you know nothing about. Vaccination risks, seatbelt use, prescription medications and many other areas where personal responsibilty can be a problem because of ignorance.

Another hard question is "Do I know what I don't know?" or "Did I really hear everything that was presented to me?"
 
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Actually being able to clear a mask, hold a desired depth, not smash into the bottom, not pop to the surface, not fin constantly while vertical to maintain depth, know where their buddy is, know how much gas the dive will require, provide or receive gas and make an ascent. If you come away from a course with problems in those areas (and many people exhibit those problems) then what did you pay for?
When PADI revised their OW course a few years ago, they put new emphasis on every one of the skills in that list, without exception. They needed to. The old course was especially weak on buoyancy skills. There was almost no requirement for neutral buoyancy swimming in the OW course. Many instructors went far beyond those minimums, but many did not. That has all changed by quite a bit, although I greatly fear that many instructors are just repeating the old class with minor tweaks. Here are some highlights of the changes:
  1. There is a much greater emphasis on teaching both buoyancy and trim. In the old course materials, there was neither a still picture nor video of anyone diving while neutrally buoyant and in good trim--everything showed people doing skills while kneeling. Now there are no kneeling pictures, and there are many shots of proper buoyancy and trim swimming. The course requirements call for more hovering and more neutral buoyancy swimming. The final OW dive has no required skills at all--students are supposed to plan and execute a dive with the instructor just following to make sure everything goes OK.
  2. For parts of the pool sessions, students are supposed to treat the bottom of the pool as a sensitive marine environment that they are not allowed to touch in any way.
  3. Buddy awareness is a major part of the course, including during extended practice diving in the pool sessions.
  4. More mask skills were added.
  5. Gas planning procedures were added to the academic portion of the class. During both the pool sessions and the OW sessions, the buddy teams (and instructor) are supposed to ask divers for their current gas levels frequently, and the students are expected to reply with reasonable accuracy without looking at their gauges because they had only recently checked on their own.
  6. The OOA exercises were changed to add more practice ascending while sharing air, and a surprise air sharing exercise was added to a free swimming portion of the class.
 
So where would you put deco training into rec diving (taught by the commercial agencies?)

I would say Rescue, since I doubt if AOW would make Buoyancy mandatory and start discussing the importance of holding a stop accurately. I think Rescue, as dealing with accidental deco is a rescue issue, and if you don't have some understanding, you can make matters worse rather than better. Turn Master Scuba Diver into a real class, as some have, and address deco there. Use the class as a mandatory step into tech or professional ranks.

When I started diving, and later when I took OW in '80, decompression was addressed. The recent "just say no to deco" not only puts you at a disadvantage should you find yourself in deco, but also does not give you the tools to manage your risk when choosing and diving a computer or diving tables. Training NDL divers about deco does not give permission to dive that way, but if taught properly, gives the information to avoid the risk it entails, and how to mitigate it if you get jammed up.


Bob
 

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