Leejnd
Contributor
Tim, I completely disagree with how you have interpreted this discussion. In fact, I can't help but wonder if you even read some of the posts - especially the ones that explain that a DM's role can vary depending on the type of boat, the area, the policies of the dive op, etc.
In fact, I feel that you are doing DMs, and the entire dive industry, a big disservice in your interpretation. I will attempt to explain (and I do hope you read it - hey, I read your lengthy posts! )
I disagree that there IS a problem. How does the fact that the DM role differs widely depending on the situation mean that there is a problem? The simple reality is, there are different types of boats, different types of ops, and areas in which the needs are simply different. An example: resort areas in the tropics get lots of vacation divers - people who got certified years ago and only dive once a year (if that) when they go on vacation. These types of divers generally don't have their own equipment, are not skilled in navigation, and truly need to be babysat. Areas such as SoCal, on the other hand, are filled with frequent divers who LIVE here, dive regularly, have their own gear, are generally skilled and competent, and have no desire to be led by the nose. Completely different needs for the DMs - so their role on the two different boats MUST be different.
Where's the problem?
Divers are taught in cert courses that they are expected to be self-sufficient. That self-sufficiency includes learning what to expect at the places they will go diving. To board a dive boat ANYWHERE with an assumption of what the DMs will do, without having any prior knowledge of what the general standards are in THAT place, on THAT type of boat, is simply foolish.
Again, any diver who makes such assumptions without educating himself in advance is behaving foolishly. That is NOT being a self-sufficient diver. So yes, I would agree that any diver who does that is a loser. But that is not a "problem" in the industry, or with DMs, or DM standards. It's a problem with the diver who didn't bother to learn something about the place he is going to do an activity that can, infact, result in disability or death.
We see this out here in SoCal - vacation divers who come here and expect to go on our boats and be treated like they are on a cattle boat in Cozumel. They didn't bother to learn anything about our unique environment - cold water, currents, kelp - and they are stunned to learn that they will not be babysat and catered to like they were when they went on that dive off a cruise ship last year.
Who's fault is that? The DM's? The industry's for not having "standards"? No, it's the diver's - for not doing his homework.
I strongly disagree. There ARE reasonable standards - but they vary based on the situation. This variance is necessary. The "vague nature" you speak of is simply unavoidable due to the varied nature of diving. Can you imagine the number of accidents and deaths that would occur if cattle-boats of vacation divers in Cozumel were run the way our boats out here are? And...can you imagine the number of fistfights that would occur if our boats tried to operate the way the cattle boats in Cozumel do?
This DOES take place - where it needs to. I've been on resort boats where the DMs were the masters and commanders, read every logbook, matched up instabuddies based on experience and skill, and basically took total charge. If a DM out here in SoCal tried to do that, he'd probably get a black eye.
Again, I disagree. DMs don't operate they way they do because of the money factor - they do it because it's what's called for based in the type of situation, type of boat, etc. Are you starting to see a theme here? And truth be told, if something goes wrong it usually IS the *fault* (if you really want to use that word) of the diver. That's what you become certified for - so you can learn to be self-sufficient. YOU and ONLY you are responsible for your gear, your safety, your dive. It is patently unfair, not to mention foolish, to expect a DM to be responsible for you. If you feel that way, you really shouldn't be diving.
Now THIS I wholeheartedly agree with! And the part I highlighted in red is, as far as I'm concerned, the REAL problem in diving. But that's a problem with the divers, not the DMs, not the dive ops, not the boat, not the industry. Divers are taught in cert courses that they, and only they, are responsible for their safety - and NOT to expect DMs or others to take care of them. If they do, they are not following their training, are they?
And now you're REALLY making sense! This is the most accurate, spot-on paragraph of your entire post. But where is this "explicitness" expressed? In training. Or at least, it should be. Divers should come out of their cert courses knowing this. They shouldn't have to be reminded.
Again, it completely depends on the type of boat/op/dive. Resort dive boats should (and usually do) do more of this. Local, open boats don't - and shouldn't have to. But I can also tell you that, even on our local, do-your-own-thing kind of boats, our DMs do the best job they can to ensure that every single person on the boat gets the help they need, and doesn't put themselves in danger. Of course, there's no cure for stupid - and that's not the DM's fault.
You're welcome - and I hope you actually read them!
In fact, I feel that you are doing DMs, and the entire dive industry, a big disservice in your interpretation. I will attempt to explain (and I do hope you read it - hey, I read your lengthy posts! )
This has been very enlightening. It seems one problem is that there is no real standard for what a DM does or should do. The responses here have ranged greatly from the all inclusive to just the bare minimum and the diver takes the rest. The fact that the divers also don't agree on what they would like for the DM to do just exacerbates the problem.
I disagree that there IS a problem. How does the fact that the DM role differs widely depending on the situation mean that there is a problem? The simple reality is, there are different types of boats, different types of ops, and areas in which the needs are simply different. An example: resort areas in the tropics get lots of vacation divers - people who got certified years ago and only dive once a year (if that) when they go on vacation. These types of divers generally don't have their own equipment, are not skilled in navigation, and truly need to be babysat. Areas such as SoCal, on the other hand, are filled with frequent divers who LIVE here, dive regularly, have their own gear, are generally skilled and competent, and have no desire to be led by the nose. Completely different needs for the DMs - so their role on the two different boats MUST be different.
Where's the problem?
Divers are taught in cert courses that they are expected to be self-sufficient. That self-sufficiency includes learning what to expect at the places they will go diving. To board a dive boat ANYWHERE with an assumption of what the DMs will do, without having any prior knowledge of what the general standards are in THAT place, on THAT type of boat, is simply foolish.
Unfortunately, the loser here is the diver who makes some assumption (based on previous experience, anecdotal reports of other divers, etc.) regarding the assistance he or she will receive. Also very unfortunate is that the list of possible outcomes relative to that loss includes severe penalties such as disability and death.
Again, any diver who makes such assumptions without educating himself in advance is behaving foolishly. That is NOT being a self-sufficient diver. So yes, I would agree that any diver who does that is a loser. But that is not a "problem" in the industry, or with DMs, or DM standards. It's a problem with the diver who didn't bother to learn something about the place he is going to do an activity that can, infact, result in disability or death.
We see this out here in SoCal - vacation divers who come here and expect to go on our boats and be treated like they are on a cattle boat in Cozumel. They didn't bother to learn anything about our unique environment - cold water, currents, kelp - and they are stunned to learn that they will not be babysat and catered to like they were when they went on that dive off a cruise ship last year.
Who's fault is that? The DM's? The industry's for not having "standards"? No, it's the diver's - for not doing his homework.
However, I wouldn't think it would hurt to have some reasonable guidelines for what a DM does for his divers and what you both can and should expect on a dive. That would include not only the help you would or could receive but also what their expectations of you as a certified diver will be. The vague nature of it all is what concerns me. Nobody can or will define the roles.
I strongly disagree. There ARE reasonable standards - but they vary based on the situation. This variance is necessary. The "vague nature" you speak of is simply unavoidable due to the varied nature of diving. Can you imagine the number of accidents and deaths that would occur if cattle-boats of vacation divers in Cozumel were run the way our boats out here are? And...can you imagine the number of fistfights that would occur if our boats tried to operate the way the cattle boats in Cozumel do?
The bottom line is that diving is a very inclusive sport because it has so many different permutations. There are once-a-year rec divers and hard core daily tech divers. These divers obviously need vastly different things from anyone trying to aid them on a dive. So, some of this should work itself out if the divers pick dives that are remotely appropriate to their skill level. But maybe the dive operators and DM's still need to do a better job of trying to really figure out how experienced and/or comfortable the divers are well before the dives begin. I do think it would be very frustrating for every dive to be dumbed down to the level of the least experienced diver on the boat, so why not try to do a better job matching the experience levels to the dives and operators?
This DOES take place - where it needs to. I've been on resort boats where the DMs were the masters and commanders, read every logbook, matched up instabuddies based on experience and skill, and basically took total charge. If a DM out here in SoCal tried to do that, he'd probably get a black eye.
Maybe this is simple economics at work. The money is really not there so you take all comers, try not to piss anyone off and try not to kill anyone. If something does happen, you point at the diver and say it was his fault - he was certified after all. You have kept everything very vague which makes it harder to prove who is really at fault so that protects the dive operator and his staff.
Again, I disagree. DMs don't operate they way they do because of the money factor - they do it because it's what's called for based in the type of situation, type of boat, etc. Are you starting to see a theme here? And truth be told, if something goes wrong it usually IS the *fault* (if you really want to use that word) of the diver. That's what you become certified for - so you can learn to be self-sufficient. YOU and ONLY you are responsible for your gear, your safety, your dive. It is patently unfair, not to mention foolish, to expect a DM to be responsible for you. If you feel that way, you really shouldn't be diving.
In aviation, no matter what happens on a flight, the end result of the investigation will have "pilot error" as a component. If something fails, you should have anticipated that and been able to deal with it - if you didn't or couldn't that was your fault. If the weather suddenly got overwhelming, you should have been able to predict that - even when the meteorologists couldn't and it was your fault. They will often try to share the blame among manufacturers but, in the end, it was the pilot's fault. Knowing that, I always try to keep in mind that there really is no one to help me when I'm in the air. That insures that I am very thorough on my preflights, that I spend anything necessary on maintenance, that I keep my training up and that I am very forceful with air traffic control when I believe their agenda is at odds with my safety. I feel the same way with diving, but I think there are many out there that have the expectation that "someone" will help them if anything goes wrong, so they don't really have to worry about it.
Now THIS I wholeheartedly agree with! And the part I highlighted in red is, as far as I'm concerned, the REAL problem in diving. But that's a problem with the divers, not the DMs, not the dive ops, not the boat, not the industry. Divers are taught in cert courses that they, and only they, are responsible for their safety - and NOT to expect DMs or others to take care of them. If they do, they are not following their training, are they?
It seems the right thing to do might be to be very explicit about the fact that the responsibility lies with you the diver and that you cannot really count on any help from the DM. Sure, they will try to help if they can, but it is not a guarantee and if you aren't comfortable taking the risk of getting lost in low vis or getting swept away in strong current or whatever other peril lurks on a particular dive, then you really shouldn't go.
And now you're REALLY making sense! This is the most accurate, spot-on paragraph of your entire post. But where is this "explicitness" expressed? In training. Or at least, it should be. Divers should come out of their cert courses knowing this. They shouldn't have to be reminded.
On the dive boats I've been on, there certainly hasn't been any emphasis placed on insuring that your skills and confidence level are up to the dive. I know you can hire a private DM as a guide at most places, but I would be willing to be that there is some more money to be made right here by being a little more proactive. A VERY thorough briefing of the upcoming dive and the associated challenges followed by an explicit offer of additional paid support would probably have a two-fold effect. First, it would increase the safety for those divers who come to realize they may be in over their heads and take advantage of some highly skilled help. Second, it would help to separate the divers by skill levels so that both the highly skilled and novices alike would have a better chance of getting the full enjoyment from their dives.
Again, it completely depends on the type of boat/op/dive. Resort dive boats should (and usually do) do more of this. Local, open boats don't - and shouldn't have to. But I can also tell you that, even on our local, do-your-own-thing kind of boats, our DMs do the best job they can to ensure that every single person on the boat gets the help they need, and doesn't put themselves in danger. Of course, there's no cure for stupid - and that's not the DM's fault.
Sorry for the long post and thanks for the responses!
You're welcome - and I hope you actually read them!