Seeking the DIR Answer: Must DIR Shops be Committed?

[somewhereinla]

well then, I think the whole thing is a big marketing ploy.

I think there is a lot of thruth in that statement. Looking at DIR equipment, I can't help but think that the profit margin in DIR products from company such as Halcyon or salvo ought to be very high... I have seen so many post from people that want to go DIR although most of them state that they have no ambition in going into any kind of tech. diving, they just want the equipment...

I do think that a lot of DIR principles are good and do make a lot of sense, I am not criticizing DIR, but you have to admit that DIR equipment is ridiculously expensive (please don't tell me it's because it's higher quality, lot's of non DIR equipment is very high quality), and when you switch to DIR, you pretty much have to buy you equipment all over again. DIR has become a big business...

 

[sea nmf]

It seems like a huge philosophical break to me. Sort of like Baptists renting out the church to Catholics. (well, that's spiritual, to some).

Anyway, to believe that other types of diving is fundamentally unsafe, then take a bunch of those divers out diving, to dive as they please, is a bit warped (if they really think it is unsafe).

However, in a capitalistic economy, money usually trumps philosophy. Now, go invest in tobacco.

 

[TSandM]

I'm really sorry, somewhereinla, but your post is misguided and shows a lack of understanding of what DIR is about.

"DIR equipment" is a simple backplate and wing, a long hose/bungied backup regulator setup, an SPG and non-split fins. None of this needs to be expensive. A full, brand-new DSS singles rig costs less than I paid for my original back-inflate BC.

Halcyon is a brand name. Halcyon gear is expensive, frequently more so than other, equally good competing items. You absolutely do not need to own a single piece of Halcyon gear to be DIR through-and-through.

DIR is not big business. DIR is a ridiculously tiny fraction of the total scuba gear or training market. DIR gets talked about WAY out of proportion to its prominence in diving, in part because people who dive that way tend to want to talk about it, and in part because it has been very controversial.

Catherine, you may choose to believe that DIR is marketing. I prefer to believe that a dive op has to make ends meet and wouldn't exist if it restricted itself to DIR divers. Even the MV Tala, set up, equipped and supplied specifically for DIR diving, cannot survive on DIR business alone. It is all very well and good to say that a dive op should say to its Hawaii clientele, "No, you can't dive air, you can't dive below 100 feet unless you're on helium, and you have to dive as buddy pairs or teams." How long would such a dive op last in the competitive atmosphere of the islands? When 99.9% of the people who come there have never HEARD of DIR and don't care, and don't want to be told they can't do the YO because they aren't helium certified?

Sea nmf, is it worse that a dive op that sponsors DIR diving and classes takes people to do dives they KNOW are undesirable and risky, or is it worse that other dive shops and instructors take people to do the same dives when they don't even understand what the risks ARE?

 

[Cacia]

Catherine, you may choose to believe that DIR is marketing. I prefer to believe that a dive op has to make ends meet and wouldn't exist if it restricted itself to DIR divers. Even the MV Tala, set up, equipped and supplied specifically for DIR diving, cannot survive on DIR business alone. It is all very well and good to say that a dive op should say to its Hawaii clientele, "No, you can't dive air, you can't dive below 100 feet unless you're on helium, and you have to dive as buddy pairs or teams." How long would such a dive op last in the competitive atmosphere of the islands? When 99.9% of the people who come there have never HEARD of DIR and don't care, and don't want to be told they can't do the YO because they aren't helium certified?

Now I am hearing about the financial pressures of the operator, but then you are basically saying that DIR type classes are being subsidized by "the other folk"...am I am missing something? I can handle that, if the reality is up front. But I'd hate to think then they would be too zealous about some of the principles then, that's all. I mean can you really distance yourself too much if it's good enough for your pocketbook?

told they can't do the YO because they aren't helium certified?

they are penetrating at night with newish divers on air and Al 80's. I don't care which standards you choose, I just think expecting some ethical consistency would be reasonable.
We don't have any operators that forbid penetration in the Sea Tiger, 130 feet at the sand.
The reality is so far from what is preached, it blows my mind.
If somebody out there doesn't do it, my apologies, but I've been here seven years and never heard a breifing forbidding it.

 

[sea nmf]

Sea nmf, is it worse that a dive op that sponsors DIR diving and classes takes people to do dives they KNOW are undesirable and risky, or is it worse that other dive shops and instructors take people to do the same dives when they don't even understand what the risks ARE?

I don't really care, one way or the other. I think divers need to be responsible for themselves, not rely on dive shops. I think many divers can know the risks, whether or not they have been through the DIR program. Not all, but many.

Catherine asked if anywone else saw the issue and I was pointing out that I see it.

I agree that they need to do this to stay in business. But can you agree that it seems a of a break in the, for lack of a better description, set of beliefs?

 

[PerroneFord]

I am not criticizing DIR, but you have to admit that DIR equipment is ridiculously expensive

...and when you switch to DIR, you pretty much have to buy you equipment all over again.

Taking the second portion first, my switch to DIR didn't force me to switch anything over. All the divers in the magazines doing the diving I wanted to do, were wearing the same kind of gear. And none of, them to my knowledge, were DIR divers.

So now to this fallacy that DIR gear is ridiculously expensive. What is?

Lets compare gear from two popular internet retailers, ScubaToys and DeepSea Supply. Let's assume that the diver has already bought mask and paddle fins.

So we need a top notch BC for our diver.

At DSS we have a single tank rig with Hog harness, and LCD 30 for $455. Perfectly DIR compliant, and a very popular unit.

At ScubaToys how about the Zeagle Ranger which seems popular with the men. Cost $615. Not mainstream enough? Ok, lets back it down to some starter gear, howabout the Zeagle Stilleto which is a popular rig that gets recommended here on SB a lot. ST price $485. With the 10% SB discount you save $15 over the DIR solution. Doesn't seem like a huge DIR profit center to me.

So we need an exposure suit. Well I took Fundies in the same wetsuit I took my other courses in, so that's a wash.

SMB for boat diving. Well, DIR says I need to have one. Uhhh, so did the boat captain when I did the Oriskany. So it seems that DIR asked me to have some safety gear that I would have had to dive anyway.

DIR says I need a light. Well, probably nice to have a signaling device on the ocean anyway. Halcyon Scout is about $80. Seems like a lot for a 3-C cell light. ScubaToys has the Princeton Tec Halogen for $34.99. SCORE! I saved $45.

Uh oh, DIR boys say my fins have to go. I need Jetfins. So I have to dump my Tusa X-pert Zooms that I got at ScubaToys for only $129 and buy Jetfins for... $65 at LeisurePro (or $89 at your local Authorized ScubaPro retailer). Hmm, Jetfins are cheaper.

What about that console! DIR says I have to have a brass SPG. That's $60 (from Soggy here on SB) or $85 from Dive Rite or others. And I need a depth guage and that's $60 too. So that basic console I spent $150 on was actually more expensive too.

Since DIR doesn't use computers, I get to pocket that $500 I was gonna spend. Gee, that would pay for an Entire GUE Fundies class.


So we've outfit a DIR diver in fully compliant DIR gear and did it cheaper than many people spend for new, basic gear at the local dive shop or even shopping online at a great shop like ScubaToys. Not only that, but for equivalent cost, we put that diver through GUE's Fundie course.

So explain to me where this huge DIR cash cow is...

 

[Soggy]

I'm *completely* lost as to what could possibly be going through your head, Catherine. You're kind of going off the deep end here, a little.

Did someone wrong you under the guise of GUE/DIR?

 

[Cacia]

I just think it will effect how I percieve dogma on both sides

just one more piece of the picture

You're kind of going off the deep end here, a little.

really? why?
So you don't see an issue with them telling me not to enter a wreck, while they accept cash to take tourists- less trained,- less experienced than me in there whom even I might raise my eyebrows at? people with 6 or 7 dives?

Okay...I'm in the deep end then.

I see Halcyon gear as a good value personally. I see it as cost effective to buy the DIR config even if you solo, not DIR, whatever.

 

[Soggy]

I just think it will effect how I percieve dogma on both sides

just one more piece of the picture

Why should any of that matter? All that matters are the concepts and skills.

 

[Soggy]

So you don't see an issue with them telling me not to enter a wreck, while they accept cash to take tourists less trained, less experienced than me in there whom even I might raise my eyebrows at?

I didn't tell you that, nor do I think those tourists should be brought into the wreck, nor would I personally go into a wreck with some DM and a single tank. *You* can do whatever *you* want to do.

Sounds like you had a bad experience with some dufus. What does that have to do with DIR?

Really, get over it. The sour grapes are getting wicked old, fast.