Sexism?

[Derelict]

While I fully appreciate that you may possibly have never had to go out and shop for a female wetsuit, you don't seem to grasp that we don't usually get the luxury of choice in dive shops. We're lucky if the LDS even sells a single female wetsuit in the first place, let alone actually having a choice in the matter. Hence the reason I end up shopping in the local surf shop instead - they actually have options, ones that have nothing to do with colour.

I've had friends who were put off diving entirely during a try-out dive while on holiday on the GBR because the dive shop didn't have a single female wetsuit and they ended up having to wear an ill-fitting mens one that made the whole process so uncomfortable that they didn't want to go any further with diving.

It may seem like a minor issue in isolation, but then people seem to wonder why so many females don't continue with diving...Well, there's a good starting point.

That's an odd one. All the dive shops I've been to have had plenty of wet suits for women and men, and are more than happy to order in the size that you require. Hell, the wet suit I bought was actually one of the staff members, he had used it once, but they didn't have another that size so they let me have that one so I could go diving in it that day.

Edit: I should ask, which region are you? My experiences so far have been in Brisbane/Sunshine coast. I only moved back to Melbourne this week, all my diving was while I've lived in Brisbane.

 

[WetPup]

That's an odd one. All the dive shops I've been to have had plenty of wet suits for women and men, and are more than happy to order in the size that you require. Hell, the wet suit I bought was actually one of the staff members, he had used it once, but they didn't have another that size so they let me have that one so I could go diving in it that day.

Edit: I should ask, which region are you? My experiences so far have been in Brisbane/Sunshine coast. I only moved back to Melbourne this week, all my diving was while I've lived in Brisbane.

Was Perth. Now Townsville.

The issue in Perth was that everyone only seemed to stock ScubaPro wetsuits. And for whatever reason, they were a terrible fit for me, regardless of which one I tried on. I ended up buying a couple of surfing wetsuits from West (a local wetsuit manufacturer), which I use for both diving and surfing. I find the surfing wetsuits to be more flexible anyway due to the increased movement involved in surfing.

In Townsville, the LDS seems to pretty much cater solely for the army guys. Which I understand to a point, they do seem to be the primary customer base...Except they are not the only ones interested in diving here.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

Perhaps. I mean we can buy wetsuits online in Australia too, but my experience with that has been less than ideal. You can go through 6-8 different wetsuits before finding one that actually fits properly, and you're paying obscene amounts for shipping (and return shipping) on each and every one of them when you find they don't fit. Buying wetsuits online is a bad idea.

Or you can get your LDS to order one in for you, but then it's the same problem (with the addition of them usually only ordering 1-2 specific brands). You have to pay the LDS in advance to order it in, and if it doesn't fit, tough s**t, you've still got to pay for it. So you still end up in a merry-go-round with the LDS and having to sell off the ones you were forced to pay for that don't fit on eBay or something.

Honestly, it's a vicious circle...Women aren't diving because nobody is stocking appropriate gear for them, and nobody is stocking female-friendly gear because females aren't diving.

Where I live, the dive community is overwhelmingly male due to the presence of a major military base. I appreciate the fact that the majority of the customers in my LDS are men. However that doesn't negate the fact that there are female divers around here. And the LDS literally does not stock a single female wetsuit, either rental versions for students, or brand new ones for sale. Not a single one. How many customers is that LDS missing out on locally because they won't cater for women? Based on the number of other females around here that I've spoken to - there's actually quite a few.

Sounds like somebody could do a hell of a business making custom suits in your area.

 

[drrich2]

If it were fabulous we wouldn't take much issue with it.

I'm aware she's very accomplished, a famous name in diving. Like most divers, I haven't met her, so I judge the article for what it is, not who she is.

And it's got issues. Some of our criticisms show we did read the article, else we'd not have found objectionable content.

 

[Ayisha]

...Jill writes a story about sexism in diving and uses a large chunk of my text to "prove her point" but it's entirely out of context and clearly engineered through re-interpretation to manipulate readers ... that was *NOT* the point I was trying to make. It was the point SHE was trying to make but couldn't, based on her own words......

That was blatantly obvious and over the top and one would think it should have been edited out, but the editors did not even correct grammar or spelling or missing words, so they may have missed that as well.

This is my first post on this thread since the thread rubbed me the wrong way right from the first post.

In addition to some points that have been brought up already by others, I wondered about the skewed interpretation of "leadership roles" that were "by no means complete or fully researched". If statistics have not been thoroughly vetted or researched, they should not be published until they have been verified. Otherwise, what purpose do they serve other than to possibly offend certain people or organizations? On FB, I asked the following, and below is Jill's response:

Hi Jill, in the paragraph about the lack of female leadership roles in cave and technical diving, I was wondering why it seems to only quantify cave instructors rather than both together or separately? You start out talking about both and then give numbers for only one. Something I certainly see here in the great lakes area is a huge rise in women in tech and cave diving at a non-professional level in the last 15 years. You didn't mention it, but is that something you also see in cave country?

Jill Heinerth

Hi Ayisha... I wish I a book to write beyond my personal sphere here! The women in cave diving is on the increase here but very slowly and has a long way to go!

 

[drrich2]

Regarding the below, I wonder what the 'long way to go' is? Is it to remove from unjust obstacle? Or is it some dream that 50% of cave divers will be female? If so, that may be a setup for frustration. While very little is unique to either gender, in terms of trends there are differences in some life choices they make & preferences they have. As a guy, I don't look at a female dominated profession like nursing & think men have a long way to go because not half of nurses are men, for example.

That may not be the kind of thing she's talking about. I brought it up because some people seem to have a dream of a 50/50 gender split across all walks of life, and I don't think we're going to see that because there aren't equal percentages of both genders wanting & prioritizing to do everything. Case in point: I don't want as many pairs of shoes as my wife has.

Jill Heinerth
Hi Ayisha... I wish I a book to write beyond my personal sphere here! The women in cave diving is on the increase here but very slowly and has a long way to go!

 

[Storker]

You know... I'm actually a little peeved.

Jill writes a story about sexism in diving and uses a large chunk of my text to "prove her point" but it's entirely out of context and clearly engineered through re-interpretation to manipulate readers ... that was *NOT* the point I was trying to make. It was the point SHE was trying to make but couldn't, based on her own words......

I can really understand that. And I both agree and sympathize.

What I didn't like was how - again IMO - the article painted a one-sided picture of the situation. As I've said upthread, some of us men - me included - can be pretty clueless and not see how something intended as non-sexist mateship could be seen as sexist. Particularly by women who have experienced sexism. I particularly didn't like how she took statements out of context and didn't (want to?) see/admit that as long as there is sexism in society, you will find it in diving, and that just as there are venues topside where sexism isn't an issue, there are diving clubs and communities where sexism isn't an issue. I got the impression that she didn't want to acknowledge that her experiences, although probably not uncommon, weren't universal. I saw no recognition of the fact that other people from other backgrounds than her own had other experiences; rather, she used their reality as another argument that her view was correct.

I don't know what is worst: A more balanced article which may open the arena for hand-waving away real issues, or the one-sided, cherrypicked article that makes some people dig into their trenches and start shooting. Myself, I'd prefer the former, but, hey, that's just me.

 

[chillyinCanada]

She was asked to write an article about sexism in diving. She wasn't asked to do a journalistic piece.

Yes, I'd imagine my bias is showing and the reasons for that should be obvious to any of you men.

After all, it's my being a woman and having that perspective. My experience has not been as an outlier.

---------- Post added November 6th, 2015 at 07:12 AM ----------

Since I have been named together with drrich, I will answer:

Try to find one statement that can suggest that we have been offended by the article .

Your language sound very much like words used by uneducated men. The ones that are capable of sending indecent pictures to a woman. Watch out

First let me apologize for my use of words that offended you. You'll have to excuse me but I cut my internet teeth on rec.scuba and occasionally vernacular from those old days slips back in. Regardless, no don't worry about me sending out any pictures. Perhaps you could keep a few others from sending me pictures of their parts.Thanks

 

[Freakita]

I always offer to help divers with heavy gear and steady them on rolling decks, regardless of gender. Granted, I typically assistance females first in the rare case of seeing a simultaneous need. Part is a result of a natural tendency to protect females, part is a culture of respecting women, and a significant part is being trained as a military and commercial diving tender. There’s nothing condescending about it. This crap is heavy, there’s lots of it, and wet decks are slippery.

I have never sensed resentment from divers of either gender. I haven't given it much thought until now, but perhaps it is because women see me offering the same level of assistance to males? Of course, it may also be because they were too polite to tell me to go suck bilge water.

Hi, I'm a bit latte to the chat and really i have not read the 22 pages. But Just wanted to say, as a new diver I thank any help I can get from more experienced people. And as a small and untrained person I thank all the help that a bigger and fitter person can gave me getting heavy stuff around. Just that.

 

[Wingy]

Was Perth. Now Townsville.

The issue in Perth was that everyone only seemed to stock ScubaPro wetsuits. And for whatever reason, they were a terrible fit for me, regardless of which one I tried on. I ended up buying a couple of surfing wetsuits from West (a local wetsuit manufacturer), which I use for both diving and surfing. I find the surfing wetsuits to be more flexible anyway due to the increased movement involved in surfing.

In Townsville, the LDS seems to pretty much cater solely for the army guys. Which I understand to a point, they do seem to be the primary customer base...Except they are not the only ones interested in diving here.

Still my biggest problem here. Being a small female doesnt help. Even small sizes are usually too small and while some Aqualung wetsuits are coming in to get an Aquaflex in a size 6 or 8 - im not sure I need which is why I wont buy online - is proving to be a couple of week long process.