Should Shearwater add Air Integration to its computers?

[stuartv]

My AI computer already does this.

I just looked through the Sol manual. I don't see anywhere where it lets you configure cylinder sizes.

Interpreting information is complicated, unclipping and clipping an SPG is not. It's an unconsious thing you do and is totally automated. Same as wrist movemment. SPG or AI does not matter in that sense.

It's not an issue because your drysuit inflator is connected on the chest on the right. The SPG hose does not come under your left arm when clipped away. So no issue. BTW, how often did you have a emergency ike this?

Let's face it: there no added safety to be found in AI, just convenience to some. That's fine, but there's no real advantage to AI.

I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make with your first sentence.

My training has been that my drysuit inflator comes under my left arm. My understanding is that that is pretty standard in the U.S.. At least I think it's the standard for SDI and PADI. Sure, if you clip your SPG to your waist, then there is no confusion about which hose coming from under your arm is connected to your drysuit inflator. My point was addressing those people who would say that they don't have the task loading associated with unclipping, holding up to read, and then reclipping because they route their HP hose to their chest and clip their SPG off on their chest so they can read it just by looking down.

I have never had a stuck inflator. But, dealing with that was part of my Dry Suit diving course that I took. Are you saying there's never going to be any need to quickly disconnect the inflator from my dry suit valve? If so, can I borrow your crystal ball for a minute while I check some PowerBall numbers?

As far as your last sentence... So you're saying that things that reduce your task loading do not make you safer? Or are you saying that the mechanical action of unclipping your SPG, holding it up, and then reclipping it engender ZERO task loading? What if you also have a deco bottle clipped to the same waist D-ring, so not only do you have to get your hand down there in between your body and the deco bottle (possibly after taking your can light head off your left hand), you have to make sure you unclip the correct bolt snap? Maybe you're not saying that's a ZERO task load? Maybe you're saying it's no more of a task load than simply glancing at your wrist?

I'm not a very experienced diver, but I have to call baloney on that. I am still very new, but I am not too embarrassed to say that, during an S-drill, when I had donated air and was attempting to show the recipient my SPG, I have accidentally unclipped the bottom of my deco bottle (once!) instead of my SPG. You might convince me that with enough practice you can take your can light head off your hand, reach between your body and your deco bottle, and unclip your SPG correctly 100% of the time. But, you will never convince me that when you do it it is not a higher task load than simply looking at your wrist.

In the grand scheme, AI may or may not be safer than using an SPG for your back gas. I'm not expressing an opinion one way or the other. I have AI and I have never used it on my tech diving rig. But, if you want to discuss it, let's try to be honest and objective.

 

[AJ]

Ok, let's put it this way: if you are considering unclipping and clipping the SPG, gazing at some display (manual or computer) for numbers and interpreting them as task load, you're in big trouble. How would you ever be capable to launch your SMB or worse help your buddy in a stress situation (out of air or lift to the surface) if you can't handle this simple activity? Just admit,you like AI. That's fine, good for you. But please don't try to convince me it's a safety issue. Won't work.

Safe and capable diving demands skills, not gear solutions. Don't know how much dives you did (not many according to your profile), but you will notice that by gaining experience a lot of skills that look complicated and task loading at first will become easier and eesier until you won't even notice you perform them. It becomes muscle memory. Looking at my SPG does not represent any kind of taskload for me anymore. It did in the beginning, but not anymore. Same thing for dealing with dry suit. Dealing with malfunctions also need serious training, not gear solutions.

 

[kelemvor]

I just looked through the Sol manual. I don't see anywhere where it lets you configure cylinder sizes.

You used to be able to configure Galileo dive computers with a PC. The PC software (smartTRAK) also does dive logging. You can enter the cylinder size into the dive log so that it can do running SAC calculations with your log data. I'm guessing he's confusing the log input for the DC configuration.

I too used to use the PC based software to configure the dive computer. Having a giant monitor to look at all the settings on one screen is far more convenient. I miss being able to do that. Scubapro didn't carry support for their dive computers over to windows 10, and shearwater doesn't have PC based configuration. They're log download and firmware updates only AFAIK.

 

[stuartv]

Ok, let's put it this way: if you are considering unclipping and clipping the SPG, gazing at some display (manual or computer) for numbers and interpreting them as task load

As I said earlier, if you have $10 worth of concentration to spend, and you have developed so much muscle memory that (worst case here) removing your can light from you hand, reaching between your body and deco bottle, finding the correct clip, unclipping it, holding it up, reclipping it, and putting your can light head back on your hand only takes $0.10 worth of your concentration, that's fine. But, does that mean it is as safe as using only $0.05 worth of your concentration to tilt your wrist for 2 seconds?

If you consider both to be negligible, that's fine. If they're both negligible, then both are at least equally safe, right?

So, if someone says I'd rather have the convenience of glancing at my wrist versus unclipping and reclipping and I'm willing to the extra money for it, what's the problem with that?

As far as I can tell, the only legitimate downside would be a safety concern. And, based on the discussion to this point, there doesn't seem to be any safety concern with the computer having an AI receiver and displaying the tank pressure. As has already been observed, Shearwater introduced Bluetooth into the computer, which is a transmitter AND and receiver without anyone batting an eye regarding safety. So, the only question is whether an AI transmitter introduces more risk than using an SPG.

What are the risks? Two, that I can tell. One, that the SPG or AI would physically break and start losing gas. And, two, that the SPG or AI would stop working and you would simply have no or incorrect pressure readings.

Does anyone think that there is any significant risk of a wireless transmitter physical breaking during a dive? If it's mounted correctly, this doesn't seem like a real risk to me. At least, it doesn't seem like any more of a risk than an SPG, which could rupture a HP hose, come unthreaded from the HP hose, or blow any 1 of 3 different O-rings. Plus the Bourdon tube or whatever is inside the SPG which could possibly break. The SPG failing and dumping gas is EXTREMELY unlikely. That's why so many people trust them so much. But, it seems that an AI transmitter is perhaps equally unlikely to break and dump gas during a dive?

As for failing to give accurate (or any) pressure readings, well an AI transmitter battery could die. But so could your computer's. That's a basic maintenance issue and we are not going to get into all the things that could go wrong if you don't do proper maintenance, are we? So that really only leaves signal dropouts and basic electronics failure. An occasional signal dropout is not a problem. At least, I don't think. If you can always get a pressure reading within 1 second or so of checking, does it really make you less safe if you do have to wait 1 second for it to come up? That is where current AI technology seems to be. It seems that, with proper maintenance (i.e. a new battery on schedule) an AI transmitter is not likely at all to give inaccurate readings. At least, it's less likely than an old SPG that has gotten "sticky". So that only leaves basic electronics failure versus basic mechanical failure in an SPG. Whether you think an AI transmitter is 10 times more likely or 100 times more likely (or the same) to just fail as an SPG, what's the real safety implication? If it's a Rec dive, you end it early. If it's a Tech dive, you end it early - and you know your consumption well enough and you planned your dive well enough that it is TOTALLY not a safety issue.

Where have I gone wrong? If you think using AI is less SAFE than using an SPG, why? I feel like this is the same question that has been rehashed in this thread and many others many, many times. Yet I still see people bashing use of AI and I don't understand any actual reason for what makes it less safe. Yet I do clearly see that in some use cases, AI would result in less task loading for the diver and it's not that hard to come up with scenarios where that difference in task loading could result in the diver having other problems. We all DO agree that being less task loaded is safer than being more task loaded, don't we?

---------- Post added January 13th, 2016 at 02:06 PM ----------

Safe and capable diving demands skills, not gear solutions.

From my dad [diving since about 1960, before the Navy, in the Navy, and after the Navy]:

I dive deco dives (and caves - I'm from north Florida) with double tanks and no SPG. I keep one tank turned off. When the tank I'm breathing starts to go dry, I turn on the other tank and let them equalize. Then I know I'm down to half a tank. I turn the 1 tank back off and keep going. When I run dry again, I repeat and know I'm down to 1/4 tank. Etc..

Your SPG is an unnecessary failure point and is a gear solution to a skills problem.

 

[KenGordon]

Where the transmitter goes on the first stage is quite exposed. I take some care to try to keep mine where it will not get smashed. I would not be at all keen putting them on stages as these often get banged against hard things.

I use an actual spg mostly but like being able to download the actual gas consumption data.

 

[Dhboner]

The simple act of clipping and unclipping a bolt snap can keep you engaged in the much like using a manual transmission in a car keeps you more engaged in driving. In cold water diving, the process of unclipping or clipping a boltsnap can be an early warning signal for hyopthermia...if my fingers feel numb or I become clumsy and miss the d-ring a few times, it is a tell tale sign that I am getting cold and should thumb the dive. I am not saying AI will lead to hypothermia but there is something to be said for regularly completely a few minor tasks on a regular basis to keep you more "involved" in the dive.

 

[stuartv]

you will notice that by gaining experience a lot of skills that look complicated and task loading at first will become easier and eesier until you won't even notice you perform them. It becomes muscle memory. Looking at my SPG does not represent any kind of taskload for me anymore. It did in the beginning, but not anymore. Same thing for dealing with dry suit. Dealing with malfunctions also need serious training, not gear solutions.

Also, what about every diver who is just training to do, for example deco diving? Should we do a few hundred practice and training dives, so we can build up that muscle memory to the point that it is truly automatic, before we ever do a real deco dive?

If not, then what about all those divers who you consider to be certified and safe to do deco dives who haven't built up that muscle memory yet? You don't think they would be safer tilting their wrist for a second than unclipping, etc.?

This would include, for example, the PADI diver who has 1000 Recreational dives, always checking his pressure by looking at his wrist or looking at his console that is hanging somewhere (other than clipped to a waist D-ring). That diver has 1000 dives, but they have no muscle memory for unclipping their SPG, etc..

It sounds to me like you are saying that AI might be a little safer (i.e. less task loading) for a new deco diver, but that doesn't matter.

---------- Post added January 13th, 2016 at 02:28 PM ----------

Where the transmitter goes on the first stage is quite exposed. I take some care to try to keep mine where it will not get smashed. I would not be at all keen putting them on stages as these often get banged against hard things.

I use an actual spg mostly but like being able to download the actual gas consumption data.

I, personally, have not ever said anything that would advocate putting AI on anything except a back mounted cylinder.

On my single tank rig, it sticks out the left side of the first stage. If I'm diving a single tank, it's a Recreational dive and there shouldn't be anything getting near that transmitter during the dive. And even if shtuf happens (e.g. I eff up and surge pushes me into a wall or something), it's still more or less behind my head and between me and the tank itself. It seems pretty well protected, to me. Easily safe enough for Recreational diving.

Has anyone here ever heard of a Recreational diver having an AI transmitter get broken off during a dive so that they started losing gas?

On my doubles reg set, if I were to put the AI on and keep my SPG, the AI would be on the right post, sticking almost straight down towards the cylinder from the 1st stage. I.e. very well protected, I think. The only (minor, I think) concern would be if I donated air and the reg turret rotated so the primary 2nd stage LP hose went from pointing down to pointing forward/up. That might rotate the AI transmitter up to a somewhat more exposed position. I'd have to really look at mine if I were to ever add my AI to my doubles reg, but I suspect I could mount it in a way that kept it well protected even during air sharing. Or I would simply replace my SPG with AI, in which case it would be on the left post, pointing down, and I would not have to worry about it moving during air sharing (or for anything else).

Some people always take "AI in tech" immediately to "if you use AI in tech, you have to use it on all your cylinders." I don't really see that. I could easily see using it on just my back gas, for the convenience of checking pressure during the "fun" part of the dive and for the data that gets logged, but still having regular SPGs on my other cylinders.

---------- Post added January 13th, 2016 at 02:31 PM ----------

I am not saying AI will lead to hypothermia but there is something to be said for regularly completely a few minor tasks on a regular basis to keep you more "involved" in the dive.

I can see that. If SW adds it, maybe they can also add a version of Space Invaders to the Petrel, so you can play that for a minute or two every now and then to check your dexterity and level of narcosis.

 

[rivers]

Also, what about every diver who is just training to do, for example deco diving? Should we do a few hundred practice and training dives, so we can build up that muscle memory to the point that it is truly automatic, before we ever do a real deco dive?

If not, then what about all those divers who you consider to be certified and safe to do deco dives who haven't built up that muscle memory yet? You don't think they would be safer tilting their wrist for a second than unclipping, etc.?

This would include, for example, the PADI diver who has 1000 Recreational dives, always checking his pressure by looking at his wrist or looking at his console that is hanging somewhere (other than clipped to a waist D-ring). That diver has 1000 dives, but they have no muscle memory for unclipping their SPG, etc..

It sounds to me like you are saying that AI might be a little safer (i.e. less task loading) for a new deco diver, but that doesn't matter.

If a diver can't cope with learning to clip and unclip an SPG, they aren't ready for tech diving.

---------- Post added January 13th, 2016 at 02:28 PM ----------

On my doubles reg set, if I were to put the AI on and keep my SPG, the AI would be on the right post, sticking almost straight down towards the cylinder from the 1st stage. I.e. very well protected, I think. The only (minor, I think) concern would be if I donated air and the reg turret rotated so the primary 2nd stage LP hose went from pointing down to pointing forward/up. That might rotate the AI transmitter up to a somewhat more exposed position. I'd have to really look at mine if I were to ever add my AI to my doubles reg, but I suspect I could mount it in a way that kept it well protected even during air sharing. Or I would simply replace my SPG with AI, in which case it would be on the left post, pointing down, and I would not have to worry about it moving during air sharing (or for anything else).

Try doing a shutdown with a transmitter in the way...

 

[Lorenzoid]

Also, what about every diver who is just training to do, for example deco diving? Should we do a few hundred practice and training dives, so we can build up that muscle memory to the point that it is truly automatic, before we ever do a real deco dive?

That seems to be one established school of thought.

 

[KenGordon]

Try doing a shutdown with a transmitter in the way...

It makes no difference if you have any consideration about how your valves are arranged. And afterwards you get to see how long it really took.