Silly question about dry suit air usage

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Radon??

Would keep you even warmer.:eyebrow:
Oh. I see you actually read the paper, too. :)
Radon. Hmmm. Well, if you used it, we could use you as a nightlight. :D
My favorite tidbit of info from that paper is the very scientific unit known as a "CLO." I don't know what the letters stand for, but it is defined as a unit of thermal protection equivalent to "the insulation inherent in a business suit when worn in air." Are we talking about a double-breasted, 3-piece, or what?
CLO is right up there with the smoot.
 
It sounds more scientific when you use acronyms.
We should become members of the AAAUAA.
The Alliance Against the Abusive Use of Acronyms and Abbreviations.
 
A "clo" is the amount of thermal insulation that is required to maintain an average resting man in thermal balance in an air environment where the temperature is 70F, the relative humidity is less than 50%, and the air movement is 20 feet per minute.

Aren't you glad you asked?

Basically, it's what you'd wear to be comfortable at rest at room temp.
 
I'd point out that drysuit gas consumption depends heavily on undergarments.

For example, last year I switched to a very lofty undergarment - the Whites MK3 - and have found that a Al 6 of airgon will be empty after a dive below 160'. And for "typical" recreational dives at 60'-80' will only last 2 dives.


All the best, James
 
The amount of gas removed from a cylinder for drysuit inflation is marginal. But, for those math guys or those who would like to have a better understanding of gas management and gas use, some of the following may be considered.

The formula for compression compensation is as follows:

SECF = [CVAS - (CVAS/[(Depth/33) + 1])] X [(Depth/33) + 1} X 2

Where SECF is the Surface Equivalent Cubic Feet and CVAS is Compressible Volume At Surface and the X 2 is a safety factor for wasted gas as divers make minor buoyancy adjustments.

For example, if a 160 lb. diver wearing a drysuit and properly balanced single AL80 tank system were to require 26 pounds of ballast near the surface to make an ocean dive, the compressible components of a diver's rig might be 0.40 cubic feet. If that diver were to descend to 100 feet, the math would be as follows:

SECF = {0.40cf - (0.40cf/[(100/33) + 1])} X {(100/33) + 1} X 2
SECF = {0.40cf - (0.40cf/4.03)} X 4.03 X 2
SECF = {0.40cf - .0992} X 4.03 X 2
SECF = 0.3008 X 4.03 X 2
SECF = 2.42 cf or about 2.5 cubic feet of gas.

How many psi is that in an AL 80?

80 cubic feet/3000 psi working pressure of the cylinder = .026 cubic feet per psi X 100 psi gauge increment = 2.6 cubic feet of gas per every 100 psig read on the diver's SPG.

In this case, a skilled diver inflating a drysuit to compensate for a 100 foot dive would need to use about 100 psi from his cylinders to inflate his drysuit.

If you want to be really anal-retentive about gas calculations, there are several points of interest to consider beyond how much gas will be required for drysuit inflation.

The first is Non-Reliable Gas.

Because the analog pressure gauges used by divers are "slow to start", meaning they are less accurate in the beginning of their scales from 0 - 100 psig and only moderately accurate over the remainder of their scales, the last 100 psig left in the cylinder may be referred to as non-reliable gas and not considered available for diving purposes. For example, if your SPG reads your gauge at 2900 psi, you may decide to call that 2800 psi for planning purposes.

The second consideration is Locked Gas.

During a dive, as we descend deeper, our SPG's read pressure values from our cylinders in comparison to atmospheric pressure and not ambient pressure. At any depth, a scuba unit can only be drained to a pressure that is equal to the surrounding pressure. At a depth of 200 feet, for example, approximately 100 psi in a tank will not be extracted from that cylinder. It is "locked" by the pressure exerted upon it. As a diver ascends, gas will become available with decreasing pressure and "unlock".

The third consideration is pressure loss due to Gas Cooling.

The General Gas Law states that, with a volume held constant, the absolute pressure exerted by a gas will vary directly with the absolute temperature.

The equation may be written as: P2 = [P1 X T2]/T1

Divers can expect to see a pressure drop after their cylinders have been filled and are cooling down from the molecular excitement that occurred during the filling process. If gas planning happens at this stage, there may be less gas in the cylinder for the dive than the diver realizes. Cooler water temperatures that are vastly below the air temperature, for example, 80°F air and 53°F water may also reduce available gas due to cooling.

For additional safety, a diver may wish to remove 100 psi due to non-reliable gas, 100 psi due to locked gas at depth, and finally add in a 10% loss due to cooling.

What does all this mean to the diver? Well, most divers will determine rock bottom calculation to be a minimum of 500 psig. If we looked at the worst case scenario of using about 100 psi for suit inflation, 100 psi for non-reliable gas, 100 psi for locked gas and up to 10% of a tank's pressure dropping due to cooling, all of this voodoo can easily be absorbed into the rock bottom calculation of a minimum of 500 psi rock bottom or minimum gas for all dives. For those with more aggressive profiles or who prefer much greater safety factors built into gas management, all these factors can be removed into a 500 psi chunk that is not calculated and all minimum gas and available gas planning can begin using 2500 psig from a 3000 psig cylinder. For the truly anal, all these can be calculated precisely and worked into the available gas planning.

When inflating drysuits with back gas, the gas lost is minimal and unnoticed during the dive. On a day when your breathing rate is excellent your drysuit skill might be off, while on a day when you rarely add any gas to your drysuit, your breathing rate may be less perfect.

Most divers can expect to use an average of 2 cubic feet of gas for open water suit inflation during dives to all recreational depths and up to 4 cubic feet for technical dives. Deeper divers will need greater inflation capacity. Those inflating with argon bottles may need to move to larger bottles than 6cf once venturing to 200 feet and beyond.

As was stated, undergarments can change this average, as well as drysuit inflation skill, and how much or how little gas a diver prefers to have in his or her drysuit. Personally, I like mine tight for streamlining and better control of my feet, and I tend to use very little gas. Other divers prefer to be warmer, wear thicker underwear and hold more gas in the drysuit for insulation.
 
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I used to walk across that bridge daily...
Let me guess...your frat was on the Boston side of the Charles. I loved the door codes at your alma mater. If I didn't know one, I would guess "pi" or "e".

A buddy of mine brewed a killer raspberry porter at the experimental nuclear reactor down the street. :D Good college memories...
 
To give you an idea of how much gas an experienced DS diver uses, I have a small 6cf inflation bottle. I can get 2 deep dives off of one fill with plenty reserve left. I can get about 4-5 recreational level dives off the same bottle. That works out to about 1-2cf of inflation gas per dive. You can do the math to figure out how much psi that is in your tanks.

Tom

PS, I know this doesn't account the the additional air used because of the increased drag of a drysuit.

Here is a guy with stage bottles in his photograph and 0-24 logged dives talking about using a 6cf inflation bottle for a drysuit..... i'm going to assume that you haven't changed your logged dives on scubaboard for a long while. ... or maybe i'm a slow learner and should be diving the Titanic by now. :)

sorry i like to joke
 
I'm assuming you were being sarcastic. On the outside chance that you're serious this post demonstrates why one should be wary when seeking to learn diving on the internet:idk:

Nope... no sarcasm. Just a big guy with a very lofty (weezle extreme) undergarment. I know a number of people who use 6cubic foot inflation bottles so it doesn't cut into back gas, even if they don't use argon. I even met one guy who ran a DS inflator off a pony reg for his rec dives.

I'm not in any way trying to imply you need to adjust rock bottom because of it (although your RMV may be a bit different, which would change the number), but in my experience it can definitely change gas consumption to a noticable degree... especially on deep dives when there's a significant gas volume in the suit due to diver size and undergarment choice.

You're right though... there are few "one size fits all" answers, so take internet diving advice (and criticism) with a grain of salt. The experience of a fat guy who dives in near freezing salt water may be different from the experience of a skinny warm water diver, or what have you.
 
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Nope... no sarcasm. Just a big guy with a very lofty (weezle extreme) undergarment. I know a number of people who use 6cubic foot inflation bottles so it doesn't cut into back gas, even if they don't use argon. I even met one guy who ran a DS inflator off a pony reg for his rec dives.

I'm not in any way trying to imply you need to adjust rock bottom because of it (although your RMV may be a bit different, which would change the number), but in my experience it can definitely change gas consumption to a noticable degree... especially on deep dives when there's a significant gas volume in the suit due to diver size and undergarment choice.

You're right though... there are few "one size fits all" answers, so take internet diving advice (and criticism) with a grain of salt. The experience of a fat guy who dives in near freezing salt water may be different from the experience of a skinny warm water diver, or what have you.

Sorry I reread my post and I kinda came off like an a$$. Sometimes reading too many internet posts does that to me. In my case I dive a 6cf suit inflation bottle and can get about 4 rec dives off of it and maybe 2 "baby tech" (130-150ft) dives. The calculations used for determining RB are so assumptive not to mention padded that I just don't think 2-3cf really makes a huge difference YMMV. Not to mention the fact that as a few people have pointed out once you call the dive typically you won't require much inflation gas for the rest of the dive. IMO the main reason to have a seperate suit inflation bottle is for thermal protection. I personally don't often use argon but I wouldn't want to be using backgas with helium content for suit inflation.
 
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