Skipping open circuit and going straight to CCR

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takez0

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This is my first post here. I've learned a ton on this board and I'm grateful for the insights you all provide.

I'm getting into technical diving and I'd like to jump straight into a CCR. Does the group see any benefit or hindrance in skipping open circuit tech training costs and equipment costs and going straight into a CCR? CCR's are obviously an investment. I'd rather not spend money on a new BCD, manifold, tanks, etc., that would only be used specifically for dual-tank open circuit, considering I know where I want to end up already. Let me know your thoughts or if you think this is missed training opportunity.
 
I'm still wondering what strong "wait before CCR" proponents think about our two hypothetical comparison divers.

Diver A: 20 years CCR experience (starting with air dil no deco, ending with mod3)
Diver B: 12 years OC tech experience (AN/DP->adv mix), 8 years CCR experience (mod1->mod3).
If we're talking about best avenue of diver training, I think it's better to put it like this: Imagine you have 5000 people following the Diver A progression, and 5000 people following Diver B progression. Which group has more fatalities? Which group has more serious injuries? How many divers successfully complete the progression?
 
Diver A: 20 years CCR experience (starting with air dil no deco, ending with mod3)
Diver B: 12 years OC tech experience (AN/DP->adv mix), 8 years CCR experience (mod1->mod3).

I think ignoring this comparison does a disservice to the conversation. Are people really arguing that Diver A isn't going to be extremely competent? Possibly even more competent than Diver B for the vast majority of situations and problems? Can we agree that both divers will need to practice bailout regularly to ensure they are capable and ready to do so in an emergency? Are people really going to think that diver A never dives open circuit or fine tunes OC buoyancy sufficient to be competent during a bailout?
the problem with your hypothesis is that your assuming skill learning is constantly increasing with time at a constant rate.

At the start gaining OC skill is a steep curve but after let's say 2 years that reaches a level of competancy that then plateaus off and the skills continue to get better but at a slower rate.
With CCR the same thing but lets say it take 3 years to gain competancy and then reaches a less aggressive curve.

after 20 years I think the difference between diver A and B are negligible - in fact after even 5 years theyre going to be very similar because they will have both reached an acceptable level of competancy and yes every ccr diver will ( or should ) be regularly doing BO drills

an OC diver with 12 years of experience is not twice as competent than an OC dive with 6 years, same with ccr
 
I'm not arguing for early CCR. I think, for example, there are a lot of excellent points about OC tech being simpler and allowing people to learn the fundamentals of tech diving in a bit more forgiving setup. I think there is also a lot of "human factors" value to a team really deeply understanding how fast gas goes at depth when they do their bailout planning.

I'm just looking for a little nuance to be added, here, and some acknowledgement that there are tradeoffs involved and not just a cut and dry "x is obviously better and y has no benefits".


I'm still wondering what strong "wait before CCR" proponents think about our two hypothetical comparison divers.

Diver A: 20 years CCR experience (starting with air dil no deco, ending with mod3)
Diver B: 12 years OC tech experience (AN/DP->adv mix), 8 years CCR experience (mod1->mod3).

I think ignoring this comparison does a disservice to the conversation. Are people really arguing that Diver A isn't going to be extremely competent? Possibly even more competent than Diver B for the vast majority of situations and problems? Can we agree that both divers will need to practice bailout regularly to ensure they are capable and ready to do so in an emergency? Are people really going to think that diver A never dives open circuit or fine tunes OC buoyancy sufficient to be competent during a bailout?


Maybe I missed it, what CCRs do own and how long have you been diving them?

Also, I think people are ignoring your hypothetical query because it’s strangely specific for an extremely variable situation.
 
I'm not arguing for early CCR. I think, for example, there are a lot of excellent points about OC tech being simpler and allowing people to learn the fundamentals of tech diving in a bit more forgiving setup. I think there is also a lot of "human factors" value to a team really deeply understanding how fast gas goes at depth when they do their bailout planning.

I'm just looking for a little nuance to be added, here, and some acknowledgement that there are tradeoffs involved and not just a cut and dry "x is obviously better and y has no benefits".


I'm still wondering what strong "wait before CCR" proponents think about our two hypothetical comparison divers.

Diver A: 20 years CCR experience (starting with air dil no deco, ending with mod3)
Diver B: 12 years OC tech experience (AN/DP->adv mix), 8 years CCR experience (mod1->mod3).

I think ignoring this comparison does a disservice to the conversation. Are people really arguing that Diver A isn't going to be extremely competent? Possibly even more competent than Diver B for the vast majority of situations and problems? Can we agree that both divers will need to practice bailout regularly to ensure they are capable and ready to do so in an emergency? Are people really going to think that diver A never dives open circuit or fine tunes OC buoyancy sufficient to be competent during a bailout?
Both could be great, or both could never manage to dive their way out of a paper bag.

the problem with your hypothesis is that your assuming skill learning is constantly increasing with time at a constant rate.
Or that there's any skills to begin with or matured over time at all.

There's ample evidence of older long time big name instructors with 1000s of OC and CCR hours who are absolutely dreadful in the water
 
Ha ha ha ha ah ahha can you hear em all the rite of passage we did it that way that's the only way dudes

The instructor dudes that want to maintain their instructing dudes

Well what would Lamar Hires say after the Optima, today now he has that magnificent Choptima

Well Lamar hires would say exactly the same thing because he is still catering to both sides dudes
he still needs to eat, and so he can't be alienating the majority of his sellers and instruction dudes

Ha ha ahabha ah aha open circuit who needs it, with helium prices who can afford it


There's Elon "Lets go into space dudes!" "How?" "Can we build a ramp and take the electric car?"

"No that's Evel Knievel technology!"

"We shall build a rocket!"

"And other stuff!"




It's an industry out there, utilise your capabilities, and I don't do analogies


download (1).png
 
Maybe I missed it, what CCRs do own and how long have you been diving them?
I have a few hundred hours on a JJ. Mostly wreck diving northeast US.

Also, I think people are ignoring your hypothetical query because it’s strangely specific for an extremely variable situation.
Taking complex abstract concepts and seeing how those concepts map and hold up to different hypothetical examples is a common exercise in teasing out the veracity of ideas. It's also a common method to highlight particular problems in a presented idea that aren't obvious until you actually try to apply those ideas to an example.

For example, a lot of the discussion in this thread is acting like someone who jumps into CCR early will be going straight to MOD3 in their first year or two. Actually laying out a hypothetical progression can help highlight that it's going to be years of CCR experience before someone is handling more than one or two bottles. I think a lot of people are thinking a CCR early progression is going to move as fast as they did as experience OC tech divers and haven't considered otherwise. Actually sitting down with an example can help illuminate assumptions people don't realize they're making.

If we're talking about best avenue of diver training, I think it's better to put it like this: Imagine you have 5000 people following the Diver A progression, and 5000 people following Diver B progression. Which group has more fatalities? Which group has more serious injuries? How many divers successfully complete the progression?
Interesting way to reframe it. In the context of diver training overall, I'd say in the current training eco system (extremely inconsistent quality of instruction and divers) the most conservative approach is likely the safest (OC first).

In the context of advice given to specific divers, I think competent divers with competent instructors should feel comfortable moving to CCR earlier, and not get too hung up on "needing" years of OC tech.
 
If we're talking about best avenue of diver training, I think it's better to put it like this: Imagine you have 5000 people following the Diver A progression, and 5000 people following Diver B progression. Which group has more fatalities? Which group has more serious injuries? How many divers successfully complete the progression?
We don't know the statistics, they are simply never made.
About the 20 years ccr experience, vs 12 years oc and 8 years ccr. Both divers probably started as recreational diver oc with a single tank. So they both know how this works. If you go back to recreational diving, no need to know how a valvedrill works. If you never dive oc twinset, no need to know how a valvedrill works. Bailout is oc diving, but turning on a bailout is not different from taking a stage cylinder as oc diver (if you decide to use a twinset as bailout, you need of course to know how a valvedrill works, but then you also dive oc doubles). Don't make things more difficult than needed.
If you want to go for ccr, you have to learn how to deal with bailouts. This is an important point of the course. It is also important to learn how your ccr works and what the dangers are. That bailout regulator does not work different from the regulator that you had in your mouth during your open water course.

But, most divers only dive like in every hobby only 3-5 years. So 20 years diving experience is not average. This means in that 3-5 year timeframe the courses and gear must be sold. This is also the reason that zero-to-hero, all-in-one packagedeals are popular, the money is earned, if someone quits, it is no problem. Some divers get bored with recreational diving and try technical diving. Also then after a short time they hang up the fins. You see this now after covid, there is a gap in divers because people quit, but no new divers are born. There are lesser courses sold now. Also another thing is that dive equipment got really expensive the last 3 years. That means that people who could afford diving and technical diving a few years ago maybe now cannot afford anymore.
So not all divers that start will reach the finish at the end. Also another goal can become the main goal on the path. And if you get another goal on your path, don't worry. My goals changed over time also.

When I started diving, my goal was trimix diving. And I really hated that people said I was diving outside of certification limits as open water diver, as advanced open water diver, etc (ok, I was). So I decided to do all technical courses on oc asap. I did cave just because I did not want to have pointing fingers anymore with ******** arguments.
But I liked cave diving very much, and this was never a goal, it was just a 'I want to have all certs'. So this changed a little bit my goal. Going deep ended in going deep in a cave if needed, or going deep on a wreck if needed. So I use the tool deep if needed, not as main goal anymore.
I had no plans to buy a ccr, a very dangerous tool. But I got some buddies with ccr and then after a dive to 110m where the ccr diver also survived, we decided to change equipment in the afternoon. I dove for the first time a ccr, only to 20m, but it felt safe and I could handle it. Trim and bouyancy was not that bad. The ccr diver never dove oc twinsets, but had no problem of diving with it. Then I had the chance to do at least a ccr course. This ended in having a mod1 cert, but no ccr. I needed a new car, second hand of course, but found one that was cheaper than the money I had saved for that and I could buy a second hand ccr. I still have that one. Quite fast I did my mod3 course (3 months after mod1). So again I had no pointing fingers anymore. Directly after the course I dove my unit to the limits, 5 days behind each other depths from 105 to 128m. A great time. I had a machine for deep diving. Never thought that it was also suitable in caves.
I also started using it after a year in caves. That was great. Caves were and are still better than just depth. Sidemount started because there are caves where backmount does not fit in. Teaching was never a goal for me, but people started asking me. So then I thought, why not? But my interest was and is still no recreational diving, so I found an agency were you could start with a level for owsi, but also ean, adv. ean and adv. rec. trimix. And hey, cheaper than the most famous recreational agencies. So this was my new goal. People warned me, I was still within the 3-5 years where people quit again. But I said, even if I quit, I had a great time. All my money was flowing into diving. So after 800 dives, I was instructor. From there the same goal was started, teaching all that is possible. And now I can do that. So whats next? Quit? No, I found a new goal, photography in caves. And from there I found a new interest: underwater biology. So now I also go diving in shallows for just looking for fish and take pictures of it. I also got interest in coral reefs. I never had any interest in coral reefs. Wrecks and caves, the rest was boring. I had 2800 dives when I for the first time visited Egypt. My goal 4 years ago when I bought a camera was to go to the world championships underwaterphotography. I never took a course for photography, but have been last october to the worldchampionships. And yes, I must tell that I have now a psychological bottom in doing underwater photography. I have reached that goal also. But since then, I only took pictures in old mines as I still like that. I have done now a few dives without camera at home. Oh, I have teached my first open water courses in covid time and it was not that bad teaching recreational diving. :wink: I don't go often really deep anymore, I don't plan holidays for deep divespots anymore. I still plan holidays for cavediving or photography.

So what do I want to tell with this story? If a ccr is your goal, and you can afford it, go for it. If it is nothing for you, you have tried it at least. There is no proof that you need to do oc technical diving first, there is only 1 agency that says you must do oc first, but also there it is changing. Agencies see that people want to dive ccr, so they make programms for it. People can complaign about advices from Diverite/Lamar Hires, but he also has a company and wants to earn money. It is not different from selling a fundies course as always usefull or selling the next specialty a diver maybe don't need. If you go to a Mitsubitsi garage, they will tell you that brand is the best. But I have repaired my inspiration in the Diverite factory with Lamar when I was in Florida for my ccr cave instructor course. :wink: He was not trying to sell me an Optima (it still has no ce, so it is not the best machine in Europe). The diving industry teaches where the people ask for, and as long as the statistics don't show problems, they will do in future. And every ccr diver finds his own ccr the best. And sometimes it is the only one they have dived. An instructor needs to have approval from a factory, so also this can give colored advices. I have dived 8 or 9 different units (all have mod1 on that, so also automatically the mod3), and yes, some I really don't like, others are nice.

But if you go for ccr, you maybe can find a new different goal. And another one, and also quitting is an option. Don't see this as a problem. So read the advices here, also know that a ccr can be a very complicated ##$#@#$@#$ machine with lots of disadvantages, but it also give you fun. Think about if you are the right diver for diving a ccr. There are quite a lot that quit soon after they bought one because of it is way much more work. Go with an instructor you trust. And don't forget to have fun.
And if oc or sidemount or maybe back to recreational diving is your future, that is no problem. My goals changed over the years, so from other divers also.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/perdix-ai/
http://cavediveflorida.com/Rum_House.htm

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