Some Thoughts On Reg Servicing...

[Stoo]

I had an interesting experience recently and thought I would pass it along in the hopes that it might save someone some "excitement"... I'll apologize for my long-windedness!

My primary regs are Apeks DS4s and XTX 50s. I have been using them for three or four years and found them to be bombproof and very good in our icy water in Tobermory.

I was in Belize a few weeks ago, and when I got back, I did a little shore dive in front of my house. I noticed that one of my second stages was "farting" now and again... Not freeflowing, but frequently letting out a few bubbles even when it was dialed right back. I figured that maybe it was time to have it serviced anyway and that maybe it just had a little salt or sand in it from Belize.

SInce I was going there anyway, I took them to a shop which is not an Apeks dealer. I asked the owner if he could get Apeks parts and he assured me he could. He called a few days later and said it looked like the first stages had been flooded with salt water (I chalked this up to the "valets" in Belize not being familiar with DIN regs and perhaps allowed some rinse water into the regs... ) Anyway, no harm done, and I picked up the regs a few days later.

When I got them home, I started packing for the weekend and stuck the regs on my tanks. They breathed beautifully, but when I went to remove them, I discovered that I had no purge function on either reg... I breathed them down and removed them, then texted the shop guy to set a time to come back in in the AM.

When I got there the next day, we opened them up and I was surprised to see the second stage lever flapping around even when the regs were under pressure. I questioned the shop guy about the parts again. At that point he told me that he has used parts for a HOG reg (or Hollis?) but that they were identical. I said "Really?" as this struck me as odd. I was again reassured. At that point my cell rang and I left to take the call. When I was finished, my regs were back together and and I was immediately out the door an on my way out of town to dive for the weekend.

Suiting up the next morning, we were over the site of the Vickery in the St Lawrence River. This is a great old schooner that lies on a steep incline to about 130'. The current was extremely strong and so I opted to leave my camera behind as I would need both hands to haul myself down the mooring line and across a tag line to the wreck at about 60'. When I checked my regs, they breathed great, but I noticed that the purge function was still weak. I decided to dive and then take them to a different shop near to the dive site.

I hopped into the water, and dumped the air in my suit and wing (and lungs!) and started to haul! At about 5' depth, I took a breath... and got about 90% river water! I tried to purge... and you guessed it... nothing. By this point, I was hauling myself back up. When my head cleared the water, I exhaled, then inhaled and the reg bust out in a full-blown free-flow. I couldn't stop the flow and the boat dude began turning off my valve. I switched regs for fun and it did the same thing... massive free-flow. I wasn't happy as I figured my dive day was done.

Back on board, I opened up my seconds and fiddled and diddled some. I noticed that one exhaust diaphragm was folded in on itself which explained the water coming in. The other one seemed ok. I dialed back the IP a bit and decided to head down again. The regs worked "ok" but it was hard to relax. The purge function was barely working, so I stayed shallow and cut the dive short since everyone was finishing their dives. I pretty much repeated this on the second dive... short and shallow.

Later that day, I took them into the local shop near Rockport and explained my predicament. The owner there, opened them up and asked if I'd like the regs reset the "best he could do" using the parts installed or would I liked them fixed "properly" with correct parts. I opted for the later (duh!) but explained that the other shop said he had used parts that were a different brand but "identical". New guy said that the parts were "similar", but not "identical". He then added that the parts found in a Home Depot Universal Plumbing Repair Kit were also "similar"... Ugh.

Anyway, fast forward to the next day... fast drift dive to 130'... Perfect. Second dive, 115' wreck penetration... Perfect.

So digesting all of this, the obvious question that comes to mind is why would an "excellent" shop substitute parts that were not right? My guess is that he was mistaken in his understanding, or possibly that the parts were mis-labelled from his supplier. He showed me the bag when I was there, and I seem to recall that it had a number of regs stamped on the label. This is a great shop and the owner was horrified when he found out what had happened.

The second thought I had was that for those of us that dive with "redundant" stuff, does it make sense to service regs at different times. My one reg was working fine when I took it in. Had I only serviced the one that was "farting" and it failed after servicing, then my primary would have been fine.

Obviously this was far from a brush with death since I was 5' deep and hanging on to a line. In other circumstances and perhaps a less experience guy, it may have gotten messy.

I mentioned earlier that I'd had these regs for three or four years. I had these in to the original dealer for an annual service once before. On my first dive following that service, my primary free-flowed at 100' requiring a valve shutdown and shortening of the dive.

Two service episodes, two failures.

I think it's time to take do service tech clinic and start doing them myself!

 

[DA Aquamaster]

You need to find a better technician. In his partial defense, some OEM regulators are made by a common manufacturer and then rebranded and sold under different brand names.

In some cases, the parts kits really are identical. For example Halcyon regs are rebranded Scubapro regs and the kits really are identical. However, at the other extreme you'll find that some OEM regs have been made to slightly different specifications with slightly thicker or thinner seats, thicker or thinner diaphragms, etc. and thus the parts kits and the parts in them are not identical.

You'll also find some differences within brands. For example, the Scubapro Mk 11 and Mk 17 use the same first stage body and most of the internal parts are the same. The difference is in the unsealed versus sealed ambient chamber (which is obvious), but what is less obvious is the use of a thicker diaphragm in the Mk 11 compared to the Mk 17. The Mk 17 uses a thinner diaphragm along with an extra washer to take up the additional space, and that additional space also allows a bit more working range for the valve, giving it better flow rate. Now...that's marketing ******** in my opinion, as with the same internals the Mk 11 can produce the same flow as the Mk 17 and detuning the Mk 11's performance just to create an incentive to buy a Mk 17 is a poor business practice, at least from a "care about your customer" perspective. But I digress. The point here is that using a Mk 11 kit in a Mk 17 or vice versa can be done, but the tech has to understand the differences and configure them accordingly.

There are also examples of identical looking parts being different. For example, the Scubapro G250 used a second stage spring that looks like the spring used in other models, and the difference isn't visible. But the difference is that the G250 lacked any kind of micro adjust feature so the springs for them had to operate perfectly in the specified working range of the valve, so the springs for the G250 were specially selected and the rejects went on to be used in other models where a micro adjust could be used to compensate for variation in the spring.

I'm not bashing Scubapro in particular as the same differences occur in different brands as well. Dive Rite is another where you'll find regs within brand that may look alike but be different inside due to evolutionary changes in the design over time, that are not always retrofittable. They are not unique in that regard as you'll see similar changes in Apeks and Zeagle regs over time and Poseidon is just as guilty of the practice. In some extreme cases, the tech won't know exactly what is required for a parts kit until the reg is disassembled.

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In your case, a thicker seat for the second stage is a good example of a 'minor' different where you might end up with excess play in the second stage lever. Anything more than about 1/8" play between the installed diaphragm and the lever is a no go condition as even if the reg does purge, the working range and flow rate of the valve is still adversely affected. That kind of difference can be a real problem with a single adjustment second stage where the seat thickness has a cascade effect on spring pressure and resulting downstream force as well as lever height that can't be adjusted independently.

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In any event, I agree with you that the best solution is to learn to service your own regulators. Short of that however, you should at least learn to very thoroughly inspect your own regs with various checks just after service as well as pre and post dive to ensure they are in fact working right and are ready to dive.

 

[Stoo]

I guess my point in mentioning all of this was not to "out" the shop as I believe that the guy believed he was using legit parts. Why the wrong parts were used is unknown... error on his part or error in labelling just a legit accident. As you point out DA, the key is to be really careful about testing them out following service, although I don't really think we should have to. I would like to think that techs understand that what they're doing is kinda critical... regs are different than golfclubs. How many of us get our brakes done and then carefully head to a parking lot to check that the job was done properly... Although I suppose we should!

 

[Jim Lapenta]

I'm curious as to what HOG parts he used. All the second stages in the HOG line and most of the Edge line use the same kit. They are also in bags clearly marked HOG with a label size space marked HOG-0238.
If the 2nd stage piston is installed incorrectly it is also possible for the lever to pop out of the notch that it seats in. Usually happens when someone tries to install the adjustment knob.
You hear the click and see the lever just drop or stick in position. I have to be very careful that reg students understand the importance of having the air barrel and piston assembly oriented correctly as I have seen one that it did not pop out until the diver went to breathe it during the adjustment step.
Also had one come in that this happened to after the owner had a similar experience with a shop that said "we're not a dealer but it's the same as some of the ones we do sell."
Guess it wasn't because as soon as I opened it I knew what was wrong. If I recall it was also the same set that had the airbarrel installed upside down and the reg was "breathing like crap."
Maybe that's why he sends them to me every year now instead of going to the local place?

 

[The Chairman]

If the lever is flopping around, they never finished adjusting your reg. Learning to rebuild your own regs is pretty easy to do. Get Vance Harlow's guide for an in depth read. Take a Hog class. Ask a friend who does them. It's not as hard as many make it out to be.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

...the key is to be really careful about testing them out following service, although I don't really think we should have to. I would like to think that techs understand that what they're doing is kinda critical... regs are different than golfclubs.

The tech should have checked for excessive lever play - it is Reg Tech 101 stuff and the reg never should have left the bench in that condition.

I got into reg repair as the tech/shop owner couldn't service my D400s on reliable and consistent basis. Eventually when he figured out I was tuning them myself after the service and getting much better results, he just hired me.

 

[PfcAJ]

I had a similar thing happen. No purge, and the lever was floppin' around inside the case. Breathed like ****, too.

 

[Stoo]

It's not as hard as many make it out to be.

Back when I worked in the dive business, I serviced all sorts of regs, largely by "winging" it. It really isn't very difficult and only takes a few minutes and a few special tools.

 

[Stoo]

The tech should have checked for excessive lever play - it is Reg Tech 101 stuff and the reg never should have left the bench in that condition.

I guess that's what I find so perplexing. I am no expert, but when I saw that, I knew something wasn't right...

 

[Aqua-Andy]

It still amazes me that we still continue to hear of service like this and the same people doing the work are telling us that we are going to die if we work on our own regs. I have sold all my regs from companies that prohibit part sales to the consumer and replaced them that support our desire to work on our own regs. I still don't know how the industry gets away with restricting part sales, no other industry has gotten away with it. I just don't get it.