Standards deficiencies

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Big-t-2538 once bubbled...
I agree and disagree with some of these.....

You're right, it IS different for everyone but there have to be minimum standards and, like everything else these days, they have to be geared towards the lowest common denominator.

I don't agree that the performance of any skill to a particular level is what's most important, sure its important but not most critical. I believe that its the ability to react to, and teach, different situations that counts in the end. Only experience can teach that and only number of dives (over set periods of time too so we eliminate that clown that's doing 5 dives a day just to get his numbers up) can give experience.

WW
 
Diver0001,

"You should, however, ask yourself if it's wise for a monitor on a montored forum to be flaming people."

It is not. I have not seen any flames. You said, "If you do this too early in the process it will only cause many students to forget some of the important and directly relevant things"

That dog won't hunt. You are saying people can't learn the material in an OW class. That is not true. Your reason (sorry if you took the word excuse as a flame) for not teaching a comprehensive course isn't valid. If your reason were valid, those of us who do teach a comprehensive class would have experiences to back your posuition. The opposite is true. You need to think of another reason if you want to justify leaving important material of of the OW class. IMHO, explain why you do something a certain way is giving a reason, coming up with a new explaination when the old one is proven uinvalid is making excuses. Pointing this out is not flaming.

"Your take is then, "so what?, take longer then". I would agree but one of the things that a PADI instructor can't do very easily is to re-write the book because of their personal opinions or preferences."

If you agree the system is broken, you have an obligation, as part of the system to try to change it. If you cannot get necessary changes through, you are less than ethical if you continue to use that system, move to a system that does allow you to add important material to your class and to require mastery of that material.

"In particular, PADI doesn't like 'task loading'"

Task loading is adding so many tasks to a person that they are unable to successfully complete the tasks. I am also against task loading. OTOH, it is possible to train people to handle additional tasks, one at a time, so that the tasks learned earlier become automatic and they are able to handle many tasks at the same time without task loading. In your example of mask clearing while hovering, it would be task loading to teach mask clearing while hovering and expect success. If, OTOH, you were to teach one of the tasks and have the student practice it until they are very comfortable and had mastered the skill, you could then add in the other half without task loading.

"making students think that they need to learn and/or do things that aren't in the curriculum in order to pass the course"

God forbid you might actually teach someone to dive.

"For example, an OWD needs to hover in mid water for 1 min to pass the buoyancy skill.................How about 59 seconds of good hovering and then slightly touching the bottom with the tip of one fin?"

That's a failure. Students are required to master the required skills. If a student hovers for 1 minute, but is having great difficulty, they have not mastered the skill and have not passed the requirement. Mastering a skill requires the student to be able to preform it on demand with ease. Anything else is failure and more practice. One problem is too many instructors don't know how to teach the skills.

"Which brings us to problem number 1 in the PADI system. Quality control."

Can't argue there, except to disagree with it's rating as # 1. Problems, IMHO, go much deeper.

"Say, for example, that an OW diver needed to make his first 10 dives with a DM"

This is already accomplished, not by requiring it, but by training them so poorly, they have little choice. It's a very bad idea. It trains divers to be dependent.

"AOW started at dive 25"

I encourage my students to get about 25 dives in before coming back for advanced training. I then actually train them in a course that requires 10 dives, I don't sell them a card after diving 5 times for fun. AOW is another joke.

"Rescue started at dive 50"

Rescue needs to start in the OW course. My OW dents can bring up an unconscious diver from the bottom and tow while rescue breathing. This is a Y requirement. They can rescue a panicked victim at the surface, another Y requirement.
 
WreckWriter once bubbled...

...
I believe that its the ability to react to, and teach, different situations that counts in the end. Only experience can teach that and only number of dives (over set periods of time too so we eliminate that clown that's doing 5 dives a day just to get his numbers up) can give experience.

Not going to argue that ability to react, and teach, different situations is what counts. There are other ways to gain experience though...for instance my master diver class...we spent probably 15 hours doing work in the pool before we went out in the ow and performed skills. We did a ton of work with blacked out masks (duct tape rocks!!), gear malfunctions, vavle drills, enatanglements, etc. etc. When we got to the ow...we did our rescues, navigations, night dives, OOA drills, etc.

Granted pool sessions aren't OW...but there has to be something said for practicing and perfecting skills before you get somewhere that the risk level is increased.
 
On average, Walter, how many class hours, how many pool hours does the average Y O/W program currently entail?
 
Big-t-2538 once bubbled...
Granted pool sessions aren't OW...but there has to be something said for practicing and perfecting skills before you get somewhere that the risk level is increased.

Sure, there's something to be said for practice but its not the same as real world experience. It sounds like your instructor was far more conscientious than most. I bet he or she had some experience :)

Keep in mind that my argument here is more geared towards instructor level certifications, those who will end up teaching the skills to others and who will need to answer the question about "what if".

WW
 
WreckWriter once bubbled...


You're right, it IS different for everyone but there have to be minimum standards and, like everything else these days, they have to be geared towards the lowest common denominator.

I don't agree that the performance of any skill to a particular level is what's most important, sure its important but not most critical. I believe that its the ability to react to, and teach, different situations that counts in the end. Only experience can teach that and only number of dives (over set periods of time too so we eliminate that clown that's doing 5 dives a day just to get his numbers up) can give experience.

WW
I think your both partially right. I agree with WW that raising the amount of "in-water" experience via dives is a good thing. You can not discount "been there, done that" experience when mentoring newer divers IMO. However, i wouldn't want anyone DMing an ice dive, if they had never done one, not matter how many total dives they had.

On the other hand, skill level is a good method to evaluate ones qualification for specific situations. A newer diver may only have 100 dives but can demonstrate an excellent skill set and might be qualified to start training for DM or instructor.

I believe it still comes down to the instructor making the right decisions regarding who is qualified to start, what training. For example, we are not obligated to train anyone as a DM just because they have the requisite number of dives and training. They need to be able to present a good example as a diver before they even start in DM. That means mentally and physically, in-water or out.

I know instructors and LDS owners who don't feel that way and are all about numbers. The agencies these people represent need to repair that mentality IMO. Long story, short, as instructors we are not obligated to train everyone. Sometimes common sense needs to override minimum prereqs.

Some people i've taught were ready for DM at fifty dives. These people knew their limitations and religiously stayed within them. I've also seen BOW divers with 1000+ dives who will never make a good DM.

Everyone is different IMHO. For this reason trying to catagorize how many dives required can be very subjective. A good instructor needs to able to make the decision on who to teach wisely. Unfortunately some don't. Those that don't, are the agencies problem to fix, since in the end, they certified the person doing the certifying.
 
raybo,

I've never made a study, so I can't answer your question. I can tell you what mine take. My classes are usually 16 hours of classroom and 16 hours of pool. That can be more or less depending on the make up of the class. Some learn faster, others take more time. Some are naturals in the water, but have trouble in the class or vice versa. Bigger classes take more time than smaller ones.
 
Walter once bubbled...
Diver0001,

"
You need to think of another reason if you want to justify leaving important material of of the OW class

My last post explained whey things are left out.
 
WreckWriter once bubbled...

Sure, there's something to be said for practice but its not the same as real world experience. It sounds like your instructor was far more conscientious than most. I bet he or she had some experience :)

Keep in mind that my argument here is more geared towards instructor level certifications, those who will end up teaching the skills to others and who will need to answer the question about "what if".

Yeah...that crazy woman....she hated me for like a year before she figured out I was acutally taking classes to learn. She's been an instructor at the school for about 10 years (probably more...I'm really guessing), and she thought I was another one of "those" students...but I can't say I blame her...I'm the student that doesn't take notes, doesn't read the book, and is usually not paying full attention.....but that's a whole other thread....

Eventually I would like to get to the instructor level, but I feel I'm not there yet. I have some more work to do via helping out with the OW classes, and I have more expereince to get yet before I think I'll feel comfortable teaching (not to mention I'm pretty young too).

As for real world experience...I totally agree. The mindset in a pool is a lot different than at the quarry...but I also feel there's no way I would have performed as well as I did in the OW if it wasn't for the pool sessions.

I agree with your argument that there is no substitute for experience....I was just pointing out that there are other ways to gain it...and ow training and practice is by far the best way.
 
gedunk once bubbled...

Long story, short, as instructors we are not obligated to train everyone. Sometimes common sense needs to override minimum prereqs.

that about sums it up....there is a lot to be said for common sense...and a lot of people just don't get it.
 
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