Standards deficiencies

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raybo once bubbled...
my point


<snip>

But don't proffer that crap that the general public is somehow not capable of digesting the material the should know. I don't buy it.



Hmmm..... :rolleyes: I don't seem to be getting the message across. I most definitely believe that almost anyone can learn anything related to dive-theory but this thread isn't about me; it's about the standards so I'm trying to explain to the best of my limited ability how I think PADI would like you see the world. I already wrote what I see as the major problems in my previous post but at the risk of talking in circles......here we go again.

There are two questions about the theory (by which we understand the "underlying" theory and not the practical application of the theory):

1) Do students need to know it?

Your response would be "Yes" but PADI says "not at first" and moreover, when you do teach it, the order of presentation is A and then B and then C. It's not about their trust in any particular individual to learn anything, it's about that PADI (and they haven't done this randomly) wants people to start diving immediately and they put their focus on in-water training and the practical application of the theory. It's a choice that grew out of the "immediate gratification" culture and PADI is very much aware that a majority of divers don't give a rat's-ass about the underlying theory, they just want to roll backwards off a boat during their holidays with the expectation of having some good safe fun.

Do *I* agree with this, personally? Yes and No. Yes I think a modular approach is fundamentally the right choice and No because I think the helicoptor level view is missing. I don't think that it's right to present the application of the theory without laying the foundations for further learning. You're learning to do things without necessarily understanding why and I think there's a risk to that. When I took OW I didn't understand the point of the mask drills. I could do it easily and it seemed pointless to me. Until on my 5th or 6th dive I got a little too close to the diver in front of me and he kicked my mask off my face. It sunk in at that moment but the "why" shouldn't come to you like that.....

One more point about the modular system: While I think the modular system works I think the tempo undermines the value you could get from it. The present system forces you to take OW, AOW, Rescue, a couple of specialties before you have the basic skill set and level of experience you need to be a self sufficient diver. (PADI would disagree). What I see is that the majority of divers never progress to Rescue and they end up spending their vacations playing "follow the leader" behind a DM because otherwise they don't feel safe. This isn't producing safe divers, if you ask me, this is producing fodder for the dive-industry. If you want to become a confident diver in the PADI system then you need to progress to Rescue, you need to put in a 100 dives and you need to be aware that 99% of your learning will be done after the course without an instructor present. This message doesn't get communicated to beginners because it would scare them away. It's something that a lot of people discover after the fact and I think it's one of the main sources of the disillusionment people have in the system. Expanding the scope of the OWD course would have a very calming effect but you'd find fewer divers getting trained. PADI chooses for a bare-bones intro because it draws the market. I think there's room for both a bare-bones OWD and a sort of OWD++ where you actually sign up for rescue and do OW, AOW and Rescue one after the other with a dozen or so guided dives more concentration on skills (especially buoyancy). I think there's a small but lucrative market for this and I think that people who took such a course would be more prone to keep diving. Alternatively raising the bar for experience requirements in response to the high tempo might be a major improvement.

2) Will knowing the underlying theory make a student a safer diver?

PADI clearly settled on No. Knowing how to *apply* the theory will make divers safer and PADI wants to produce safe divers, not necessarily knowledgable divers or even "good" divers. This is a key point. If you think it through then what you really need is the ability to apply knowledge. PADI chooses for practical in water training and you learn various skills that form the basis for safe diving. Let's say that again. You learn "skills" to make you "safe". The underlying theory doesn't factor in to safe diving as PADI sees it. If you make a safety stop you're being a safe diver. It doesn't fundamentally matter to them that you know "why" you're doing a safety stop as long as you do one. Application of theory takes priority over understanding the theory. Being able to use a table takes priority over knowing how it was developed.
 
Mike,

"We should understand something else also. The skill set required of an OWD has not beed reduced because it is thought too much for a student to grasp. It troubles me to see that some instructors believe this to be true. The process has been streamlined to allow divers to dive sooner. The idea is to give them only what they need to know when they need to know it. Reducing the required skills (in theory) allows you to also reduce the time required to master them. The PADI system is designed to allow a student to do their first OW dive the very day they begin training. This is a sales issue."

I understand this, but it is not to what I was responding. I was responding to someone who clearly stated something different. I understand PADI gutted their requirements because of marketing reasons. Dive education had nothing to do with it.

Diver0001,

"PADI (and they haven't done this randomly) wants people to start diving immediately and they put their focus on in-water training"

They have put their focus on marketing. If they put their focus on in water training, they would require more in water training in their standards.

"This isn't producing safe divers, if you ask me, this is producing fodder for the dive-industry."

We do agree.

"PADI wants to produce safe divers, not necessarily knowledgable divers or even "good" divers. This is a key point. If you think it through then what you really need is the ability to apply knowledge. PADI chooses for practical in water training and you learn various skills that form the basis for safe diving."

The problem is PADI doesn't require the in water skills necessary, IMHO, to make divers safe unless they are, as you said earlier, "playing "follow the leader" behind a DM because otherwise they don't feel safe." I would say they don't feel safe because they aren't safe.
 
My OW course was just over a year ago and I just watched my wife take her’s. The three biggest things missing from both were:

Weighting – While this was “given lip service” with the 10 % plus formula it was never really explained well. I good indication that this is commonplace is all the questions on ScubaBoard dealing with weighting. I also thing the floating with the waterline on your mask method of checking your weight is bogus and a better more exacting method should be developed. I understand there is a bit of a catch-22 in that, you need good buoyancy control to properly check weighting and most new divers have not developed buoyancy control. But it still seems some mention if not practice of checking weighting by hovering just below the surface should be added.

Trim -- While buoyancy control was discussed and practiced there was no mention of trim and how shifting weights or the tank type or the tanks location effect trim. While I don’t think most students are relaxed enough to perfect trim, the concepts should be taught so as you progress as a diver you at least have a clue.

Gas Management and Air Consumption – This was also given “lip service,” i.e. you should get back to the shore/boat with 500 psi. However, no effort was spent on learning how to plan to get back to the shore/boat with 500 psi or where this number came from. At least in the world of warm water OW referrals, the industry standard seems to be, “let me know when you get to 1000 PSI.”

As best I can tell these issues are not PADI OW standards and I think they should be.
 
Diver0001 once bubbled...

It's a choice that grew out of the "immediate gratification" culture and PADI is very much aware that a majority of divers don't give a rat's-ass about the underlying theory, they just want to roll backwards off a boat during their holidays with the expectation of having some good safe fun.

I agree 100% that the overwhelming majority of recreational divers will fall into this category, and that the PADI sytem churns these out like a factory, with great success.

Your points are well taken in terms of what the goals of PADI organization are. I don't have a fundamental disagreement with that philosphy to a point.

I don't remember which of these two threads debating the same fundamental concepts it was posted on earlier, but the concept of PADI "Scuba Diver" rating is the one I think most new students should be getting, not an OW. I didn't know that rating even existed until Mike posted it.

I want to see people get involved just as much as anybody. But, even in my limited exposure, I've seen a lot that just makes me shake my head a say a little prayer.

OK. So, if most of the people are just primarily interested in diving on vacation (I did this mself for a long time), and a "PADI Scuba Diver" rating allows for people to dive supervised (DM~which most charters have), and if so many of the instructors (at least many that seem to be here on the board) are for improving the standards, would you agree that it may be more appropriate that many of the students getting OW cards may be more suited for the "Scuba Diver" rating?

Then there's the matter of the AOW, and what should be in that.
 
raybo once bubbled...


<snip>

I want to see people get involved just as much as anybody. But, even in my limited exposure, I've seen a lot that just makes me shake my head a say a little prayer.

Agreed 100%. These people were trained by instructors with poor judgement or instructors who don't care. In my opinion, your "feeling" is the most important tool you have to evaluate if a student is ready. If you don't feel "proud" then the job ain't done yet. It's that simple. Standards are flexible enough that you can still give a student who has passed all of the performance requirements a "scuba diver" card if you don't have that "proud" feeling. At our club we do this with borderline cases. We also have 11 instructors (including one who is qualified to teach IANTD advanced nitrox) and 22 DM's (I'm one of the DM's :) ) and we work in teams to train students. We're training OW through Rescue on a weekly or monthly basis all year round so if a student is struggling we can assign a personal DM to them for the skills and slow them down by letting them jump from group to group and do things over and over until they get it (this is the power of the modular system). After the course we have an active "Discover Local Diving" programme and a club that many of the new students join. The club usually has about 250 paying members from all levels so we can get beginners diving locally under supervision for the first year or so and get them networking with experienced buddies. This works out well and it comes from the organization and the commitment of those involved, all but three of whom are part-time or volunteer. Obviously not everybody opts for the club. Many just want an OW or AOW to get ready for a trip. They come and train and disappear again or they take a scuba review just before going on a trip but I'm confident that these are not the ones your shake your head at. =-) The PADI system *does* work if you use it right but it doesn't *force* you to do it right (as it were).


Your job as instructor isn't done, in my opinion, until you
OK. So, if most of the people are just primarily interested in diving on vacation (I did this mself for a long time), and a "PADI Scuba Diver" rating allows for people to dive supervised (DM~which most charters have), and if so many of the instructors (at least many that seem to be here on the board) are for improving the standards, would you agree that it may be more appropriate that many of the students getting OW cards may be more suited for the "Scuba Diver" rating?

Many? no. Some? absolutely. More than it happens? Almost definitely. You don't shake your head at many divers, you shake your head at some divers..... The "scuba diver" rating was a godsend. I suspect that PADI created it to cover the "resort course" market but it has a better use ;-)


Then there's the matter of the AOW, and what should be in that.

Well, I'll tell you what's in it. 1 deep dive, 1 nav dive and 3 out of the list for adventure diving. We do buoyancy, & night standard too and the other one is sometime multilevel, sometimes drift and occasionally DPV or S&R. We never do the drysuit dive. Many of our students do OW in a drysuit (forced - means an extra pool session or 2) and we cover drysuit in the specialty. In my opinion Advanced would be better if you took a little longer and doubled the number of dives. As it is you can see it as a sort of sampling of things to come and you end up taking the "real" specialty at some point and a lot of people end up feeling ripped-off by that.

R..
 
MikeFerrara once bubbled...
Some good posts by Diver0001 and raybo I think.

<snip>

We should understand something else also. The skill set required of an OWD has not beed reduced because it is thought too much for a student to grasp. It troubles me to see that some instructors believe this to be true.

<snip>

Depends on how you look at it, Mike. If you think that they streamlined (Walter would say "dumbed down" :wink: ) so they could go faster then you're right. That's not how I read it. I think they wanted to go faster and realised that it was too much to grasp at that tempo so they took stuff out. Maybe I put it down too sharply in my post, though. :mean: I mean *if* you're going to dumb down then the way PADI did it was brilliant. =-)

R..
 
Walter once bubbled...
Diver0001,

Pardon me, but I doubt you can find a post where I used the term "dumbed down".

No offense intended. If you wouldn't have used that term then I misunderstood you.

R..
 
WreckWriter once bubbled...
I'd go for 50 dives for AOW, 100 for Rescue (if not eliminate it and put it in AOW), 300 for DM and 500 for OWSI. After OWSI, 50 dives in specialty for any specialty instructor card.

I'd like to see a method that incorporates dive time and depth into account. is 100 dives @ 20' for 20 minutes the same as 100 dives @ 20' for 60 minutes? What about 50 dives @ 100' for 20 minutes?
 

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