Taking GPS coordinates of a site... captain's permission?

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Up front and in writing as part of the contract. How does your contract read?

The same.... word for word... except my remedy is different. lol

---------- Post added January 15th, 2013 at 10:51 PM ----------

Guess what? Canival's contract remedy when I tell them to :censored: off if they want to search or screen myself or my personal effects -- thereby breaching a contract -- isn't to grab me and forcibly search my belongings. They can tell me the contract is void and do whatever their obligations as a common carrier require them to do to put me off the ship. I suppose they could sue me for breach, though contract damages seem non-existent for them. You really just don't get contract law, do you?

Where did anyone mention "grabbing and forcibly search...." That was never suggested.

I think I understand things well enough. In the class room the passenger would prevail. Going back to the situation I suggested... in the real world that passenger has no recourse.
 
Going back to the situation I suggested... in the real world that passenger has no recourse.

I refer you to my earlier point about your approach requiring you to be lucky enough to not run into someone else who decides to do whatever they can get away with. Hope your boat's insured.
 
I agree any sea captains probably have the right to do searches, but the issue at hand is the right and extent to search for what? Hazmat items, weapons, incindaries , a vile of ebola, antrax, drugs, items that would hazzard the safe operation of the vessel or threaten the safety of the passengers or its crew. Would a legal search by a sea captain incluse cavity searches? Would you confiscate a box of tampons becuause they might render dewatering pumps or toilet unusable. How about that little honey that you have your eye on, do you have unlimited access to her person. I suspect not. There is a limit to what can be justified, even for a sea captain.

Nope, aboard my vessel (commercial) I have full rights to search bags according to the vessel security plan.


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---------- Post added January 16th, 2013 at 04:17 AM ----------

Reck In your world is there a difference, with a bag that is unsecured vs a bag that is secured. IE a locked bag.

The same.... word for word... except my remedy is different. lol

---------- Post added January 15th, 2013 at 10:51 PM ----------



Where did anyone mention "grabbing and forcibly search...." That was never suggested.

I think I understand things well enough. In the class room the passenger would prevail. Going back to the situation I suggested... in the real world that passenger has no recourse.
 
Guess what? Canival's contract remedy when I tell them to :censored: off if they want to search or screen myself or my personal effects -- thereby breaching a contract -- isn't to grab me and forcibly search my belongings. They can tell me the contract is void and do whatever their obligations as a common carrier require them to do to put me off the ship. I suppose they could sue me for breach, though contract damages seem non-existent for them. You really just don't get contract law, do you?
You know all those contracts software companies like game creators or facebook write?
Theyre written with the presumption that their users dont have a clue about law and contracts. For one the agreements quite often break local law, which makes the agreements void..
 
Perhaps Captain Reck would be willing to post the boat name that he captains , the charter company name and where he operates out of so all can beware and avoid him if they choose to. How about it Reck? I can all but guarentee this conversation will hurt your business more than diseminated posit numbers could ever hurt you.

---------- Post added January 16th, 2013 at 04:54 AM ----------

I am no authority on jurisdicton issues but i have asked questions in the past to agencies including DAN regarding benifit coverage outside the US. When it comes to the GUlf , ( I am told) there is really no international waters line. The Point of departure determines whether it is US or not because so many countries share the Gulf. I asked if i was injured or need assistance or lost my equipment from an at sea accident would it be out of USA coverage. They say no because of the reason i stated. So a trip to the Flower Gardens is US territory as is all the gulf. However if i departed from Mexico to go to the Gardens it would be covered as NON us territory. Given that i would assume that there is also similar criteria in that if your departure originates from a Us Port then the whole Gulf is us territory and it is not international waters where Many of the captains rights exist. Leaving the Atlantic side of Fla would not be in that delima as it has the 12 mile limit going east that does not apply to the gulf situation.


If this is true then the boat is always in local waters and limitations to what a captain can do would exist. Once again i am not an authority. I am only repeatng what i have been told. Hense in the Gulf the captain may be held under reasonable search criteria. And the items he can take may also be limited to what is considered hazardous to the safety of the ship, crew and its passengers. If that is true then a GPS can pose no threat to the vessel SAFETY.

On the other hand if the captain is exempt from local jurisdicton. Then he cant seek damages from the local authority. You would think that the captains would look for devices for the purpose of obtaining financial gain in the courts as opposed to tossing the device overboard. You know,,,, the vaiver that would say you release us of all claims of damage but if you piss us off you will pay a fine for damages of 10,000 per incedent. If he had redress in the courts the boarding agreement would probably state his right to legal redress for not giving in to his will. Given that is probably not the case, or is the case and that type of action is not persued due to inability to substantiate a monitary value of damages. Then the only thing for the poor captain to do is to throw a temper tamtrum and toss the device overboard.

Lastly I would suspect that Reck changes his jurisdicction at will for as the situation's changes.. Ie if a diver gets injured while in the water he will say he is no responsibility for the passenger while the person is not onboard his vessel. " I am just a TAXI" As such he is powerless to dictate what the pasenger can or can not do whlie not on his vessel so he is also not in a position to prevent an injury. Yet in order to impose himself on the passenger he will say that all passengers must comply with his policies from departure to arrival back in port. So here is a scenerio. A diver surfaces and takes a picture that gets a time stamp adn a gps stamp while not on board the vessel. The information recorded was not obtained from ships systems,, which he has no right to access,, but was recieved in a legal mannor and was done while not onboard. Whos jurisdicton is the water surrounding the ship. You cant have it both ways. "I cant tell you what not to do on the waterwhen you get hurt, but i can if you take a picture. Perhaps the camera stamps with the last known data, so the pic was taken at 60' and then pocketed in the wet suit prior to surfacing. Does your real or percieved rights include the inspection of all pics taken by everyone on board? Must all cameras be inspected for mode and type prior to boarding? Bottom line is that there is a point where power or authority becomes abusive. Shrinks i am sure have names for such behavior.
 
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Perhaps Captain Reck would be willing to post the boat name that he captains , the charter company name and where he operates out of so all can beware and avoid him if they choose to. How about it Reck? I can all but guarentee this conversation will hurt your business more than diseminated posit numbers could ever hurt you.

Imagination_from_the_boat.jpg
 
You know all those contracts software companies like game creators or facebook write?
Theyre written with the presumption that their users dont have a clue about law and contracts. For one the agreements quite often break local law, which makes the agreements void..


Not true ( unless the contract was written poorly)- most have strongly written survival clauses for just that situation. Its why contracts and agreements are written with seperate labeled sections. If one or multiple sections are found to be against local, state, or federal regulations - then that specifc section will be stricked and the rest of the contract "survives" on its own merit.
 
I am no authority on jurisdicton issues but i have asked questions in the past to agencies including DAN regarding benifit coverage outside the US. When it comes to the GUlf , ( I am told) there is really no international waters line. The Point of departure determines whether it is US or not because so many countries share the Gulf. I asked if i was injured or need assistance or lost my equipment from an at sea accident would it be out of USA coverage. They say no because of the reason i stated. So a trip to the Flower Gardens is US territory as is all the gulf. However if i departed from Mexico to go to the Gardens it would be covered as NON us territory. Given that i would assume that there is also similar criteria in that if your departure originates from a Us Port then the whole Gulf is us territory and it is not international waters where Many of the captains rights exist. Leaving the Atlantic side of Fla would not be in that delima as it has the 12 mile limit going east that does not apply to the gulf situation.


If this is true then the boat is always in local waters and limitations to what a captain can do would exist. Once again i am not an authority. I am only repeatng what i have been told. Hense in the Gulf the captain may be held under reasonable search criteria. And the items he can take may also be limited to what is considered hazardous to the safety of the ship, crew and its passengers. If that is true then a GPS can pose no threat to the vessel SAFETY.

On the other hand if the captain is exempt from local jurisdicton. Then he cant seek damages from the local authority. You would think that the captains would look for devices for the purpose of obtaining financial gain in the courts as opposed to tossing the device overboard. You know,,,, the vaiver that would say you release us of all claims of damage but if you piss us off you will pay a fine for damages of 10,000 per incedent. If he had redress in the courts the boarding agreement would probably state his right to legal redress for not giving in to his will. Given that is probably not the case, or is the case and that type of action is not persued due to inability to substantiate a monitary value of damages. Then the only thing for the poor captain to do is to throw a temper tamtrum and toss the device overboard.

Lastly I would suspect that Reck changes his jurisdicction at will for as the situation's changes.. Ie if a diver gets injured while in the water he will say he is no responsibility for the passenger while the person is not onboard his vessel. " I am just a TAXI" As such he is powerless to dictate what the pasenger can or can not do whlie not on his vessel so he is also not in a position to prevent an injury. Yet in order to impose himself on the passenger he will say that all passengers must comply with his policies from departure to arrival back in port. So here is a scenerio. A diver surfaces and takes a picture that gets a time stamp adn a gps stamp while not on board the vessel. The information recorded was not obtained from ships systems,, which he has no right to access,, but was recieved in a legal mannor and was done while not onboard. Whos jurisdicton is the water surrounding the ship. You cant have it both ways. "I cant tell you what not to do on the waterwhen you get hurt, but i can if you take a picture. Perhaps the camera stamps with the last known data, so the pic was taken at 60' and then pocketed in the wet suit prior to surfacing. Does your real or percieved rights include the inspection of all pics taken by everyone on board? Must all cameras be inspected for mode and type prior to boarding? Bottom line is that there is a point where power or authority becomes abusive. Shrinks i am sure have names for such behavior.

The Flower Gardens is absolutely in US territory, regardless of the port departed from. The Fling is absolutely US territory, regardless of where in the world it is, as long as she flies the US flag, and is under US port state control. US port state control means inspected by the Coast Guard and flying old glory. We can be in Cuban Waters and you would be still in a little part of the United States. Now, treaties are signed between states that allow foreign entities to board and inspect, and if they find contraband or paperwork out of order, seize, but that's beyond the scope of this conversation. Gulf of Mexico jurisdiction is marginally as follows. The US EEZ starts at a line in the west at about the mouth of the Rio Grande and proceeds to the 26 degrees north latitude line and then east. Somewhere around the mouth of the Mississippi, the line jumps north for about 25 miles, curls around to the east, then starts curling south following the Florida shoreline 200 miles out. The line bisects the Straights of Florida at about 79 degrees west and runs east between Cuba and Florida. Then is the 12 mile limit, which stands as the federal water line. Anything inside 12 miles is in the United States. Then is the State waters boundary. It is considered 9 miles for Texas, Alabama, and Florida, but in reality it is 3 leagues for some of those states, or 10.4 miles. Louisiana changed theirs, but I don't know if the change has taken effect.

LewisEvans is correct, the captain's right to search knows no boundaries. If he suspects a person is carrying something in a cavity that is detrimental to the safety and security of his vessel, than a cavity search is completely justified. HOWEVER. Anyone who would do that to a revenue passenger would never have another one. If someone tried to board and I suspected they had something with them that would be detrimental to the safety and security of my vessel, I would refuse them permission to board and bound them over to the proper authorities. The Masters rights on a vessel are absolute. He has to answer to his port state authorities, to recognized law enforcement for the territory he is in, and to his home office. Aside from that, his word is literally law on the vessel. Don't mistake Masters Authority for what is right and proper for a charter operation in Florida. This thread is about charter operations 10 miles offshore, not high seas law.

The Master does not have to submit to local authority, sort of. If a Florida State Trooper came to my boat and asked to search it, I could say no. Same for Monroe County Sheriff's department. I may only be searched by competent marine authority such as Coast Guard. I have given up that right in the case of the Florida Fish Cops to be allowed to operate in the Florida Keys National Marine Sanctuary. However, if I choose to mouth off to a FSP Officer and tell him he isn't welcome on my vessel, I'll have CGLE here in the blink of an eye. They can search, detain me, anything they want to whenever they want, without a warrant. If local LE showed up, I would ask them to wait until the CG showed up, just because I don't know how boat savvy the FSP guy is, I'd rather have a representative from the flag state there to help keep the boat out of trouble.

Reckdiver may say to anyone who will listen that he is only a taxi driver. Oh, how I hate that term, and the Coast Guard does too. Turns out, they think that the safety record of US flagged dive boats sucks, and that's the main reason they think so. I'm not putting words in Reckdivers mouth, I don't know if he thinks he is a taxi driver or not, but am responding directly to KWS post above. The Coast Guard has recently promulgated an advisory to dive operations regarding recreational dive vessels and how they conduct business. The era of the Taxi Driver and the complete disregard for what happens to the diver once they get off the boat is long over. The diver may be responsible for his or her actions underwater, but the Captain is now responsible to give proper briefings before boarding, before diving, and between dive sites. The "I'm just a taxi driver" defense is indefensible. Hehehe.

The presence or absence of a customer GPS onboard poses no threat to vessel or customer safety. The Master is within his rights to search the customers bags, but taking such action is not politically astute while offshore. Confiscation of such a device if found is sketchy unless it is declared beforehand to be a contraband item, because such a device would not normally be categorized as such. Destruction or abandonment of the device would be sketchier indeed since the device proved no threat to the safety or security of the vessel. I still think you'd have a hard time getting a CG LE to not giggle when you filed the report.
 
The Flower Gardens is absolutely in US territory, regardless of the port departed from. The Fling is absolutely US territory, regardless of where in the world it is, as long as she flies the US flag, and is under US port state control. US port state control means inspected by the Coast Guard and flying old glory. We can be in Cuban Waters and you would be still in a little part of the United States. Now, treaties are signed between states that allow foreign entities to board and inspect, and if they find contraband or paperwork out of order, seize, but that's beyond the scope of this conversation. Gulf of Mexico jurisdiction is marginally as follows. The US EEZ starts at a line in the west at about the mouth of the Rio Grande and proceeds to the 26 degrees north latitude line and then east. Somewhere around the mouth of the Mississippi, the line jumps north for about 25 miles, curls around to the east, then starts curling south following the Florida shoreline 200 miles out. The line bisects the Straights of Florida at about 79 degrees west and runs east between Cuba and Florida. Then is the 12 mile limit, which stands as the federal water line. Anything inside 12 miles is in the United States. Then is the State waters boundary. It is considered 9 miles for Texas, Alabama, and Florida, but in reality it is 3 leagues for some of those states, or 10.4 miles. Louisiana changed theirs, but I don't know if the change has taken effect.

LewisEvans is correct, the captain's right to search knows no boundaries. If he suspects a person is carrying something in a cavity that is detrimental to the safety and security of his vessel, than a cavity search is completely justified. HOWEVER. Anyone who would do that to a revenue passenger would never have another one. If someone tried to board and I suspected they had something with them that would be detrimental to the safety and security of my vessel, I would refuse them permission to board and bound them over to the proper authorities. The Masters rights on a vessel are absolute. He has to answer to his port state authorities, to recognized law enforcement for the territory he is in, and to his home office. Aside from that, his word is literally law on the vessel. Don't mistake Masters Authority for what is right and proper for a charter operation in Florida. This thread is about charter operations 10 miles offshore, not high seas law.

The Master does not have to submit to local authority, sort of. If a Florida State Trooper came to my boat and asked to search it, I could say no. Same for Monroe County Sheriff's department. I may only be searched by competent marine authority such as Coast Guard. I have given up that right in the case of the Florida Fish Cops to be allowed to operate in the Florida Keys National Marine Sanctuary. However, if I choose to mouth off to a FSP Officer and tell him he isn't welcome on my vessel, I'll have CGLE here in the blink of an eye. They can search, detain me, anything they want to whenever they want, without a warrant. If local LE showed up, I would ask them to wait until the CG showed up, just because I don't know how boat savvy the FSP guy is, I'd rather have a representative from the flag state there to help keep the boat out of trouble.

Reckdiver may say to anyone who will listen that he is only a taxi driver. Oh, how I hate that term, and the Coast Guard does too. Turns out, they think that the safety record of US flagged dive boats sucks, and that's the main reason they think so. I'm not putting words in Reckdivers mouth, I don't know if he thinks he is a taxi driver or not, but am responding directly to KWS post above. The Coast Guard has recently promulgated an advisory to dive operations regarding recreational dive vessels and how they conduct business. The era of the Taxi Driver and the complete disregard for what happens to the diver once they get off the boat is long over. The diver may be responsible for his or her actions underwater, but the Captain is now responsible to give proper briefings before boarding, before diving, and between dive sites. The "I'm just a taxi driver" defense is indefensible. Hehehe.

The presence or absence of a customer GPS onboard poses no threat to vessel or customer safety. The Master is within his rights to search the customers bags, but taking such action is not politically astute while offshore. Confiscation of such a device if found is sketchy unless it is declared beforehand to be a contraband item, because such a device would not normally be categorized as such. Destruction or abandonment of the device would be sketchier indeed since the device proved no threat to the safety or security of the vessel. I still think you'd have a hard time getting a CG LE to not giggle when you filed the report.

Thanks for taking the time, Captain. I think we all take away something from your post.

I just had coffee, and looked outside. It's heading toward 80 here today, the water temp is 77 and I'm heading outside to get the boat ready...... No "secret" spots today. Just going out to the reef for Lobster and hopefully a Hogfish for dinner
 
I think I understand things well enough. In the class room the passenger would prevail. Going back to the situation I suggested... in the real world that passenger has no recourse.

There is always recourse.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/swift/

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