Taking GPS coordinates of a site... captain's permission?

[nimoh]

thank you to Frank and dadediver for the information from the Captain's & CG's perspective.


common sense is severely lacking nowadays - especially in some of today's children. I've seen elementary school children plagiarizing websites and then passing them it off as their own work (the instances i'm using was in regards to some poems and needless to say those particular students received an "F") -- and more than one used the same website & poem and didn't think it was wrong at all - we found the website and original poem by an easy Google search. So they are going to end up being the ones scamming the GPS co-ordinates when they are told they are not supposed to.

this is not something new in today's children, although in my day we had encyclopedias instead of wikipedias

 

[NAM001]

Well Wookie i dont buy into the absolute power thing. Absolut is a broad term. I can see you denying a LE permission to come aboard your vessel as legit. However i sustpect that when that request comes with a court order, you have no authority to deny that "request". As a captain you may be able to ignore it but at a cost to you operation freedom. I believe you have absolute authority to do searches, however you would have to justify the search for the reasons of safety and security of vessel and passengers. Like what has been implied, The ship is the captains and it runs under his terms but there are terms associated to licenses and permits that the ship has also. Those restrictions are there to protect the customer. The local sherrif may need a warrent to board against your will but the coast guard may not by virtue of thier own UNLIMITED powers. Ypou can probably maintain absolute power so olong as you never interface with land or enter territorial waters of a controling or senior authority. Mentions of carnival ships have been made and them flying other nations flags ect. The captain has absolute power till teh US says "YOU NO BURNY CLEAN FUEL,, YOU NO ENTER THE US" So perhaps one can say that the captain has absolute power but unless he forfiets degrees of that power he can not operate. If a boat wants a business license and wishes to embark passengers, he must make agreements inorder to secure that operating permit. Those agreements are there to assure the passengers safety. You want insurance yo have to agree to certain restrictions in your operations in order to be covered. When harbor sped is 5 kts you dont impose captains rights and do 10. To operate a vessel you have rules of the road. The list of things goes on and on that lets say limit your application of absolute authority. Very similar to the MARSEC signs that was mentioned. Cross this line and you forfiet your rights to be secure in your property. Like wise YTou ant to fish in these waters you will comply with coast guard regs, You will comply with being searched by the designated authority. Try telling fish and wildlife to buszz off when they pull up to at sea and wast to search for illegal game on board. Here is another example You are at sea andyou come across a sinking vessel, Are you required to render aid? I believe the answer is yes, You do not have the authority to say full speed ahead, we are going fishing, at least with out having your authority stripped as a consequence by you captains ticket being revolked. There is on ly one vessel that can do that, that i am aware of. but as a layman i can be wrong. As with any power it is only as strong as the subjects allow it to be. I am sure that you doing a cavity search for addidas shoes would be met legally with the same furvor as if a passenger forced you to alter course. Absolute power I THINK NOT. Absolute power with consequence is not really absolute power.

The Flower Gardens is absolutely in US territory, regardless of the port departed from. The Fling is absolutely US territory, regardless of where in the world it is, as long as she flies the US flag, and is under US port state control. US port state control means inspected by the Coast Guard and flying old glory. We can be in Cuban Waters and you would be still in a little part of the United States. Now, treaties are signed between states that allow foreign entities to board and inspect, and if they find contraband or paperwork out of order, seize, but that's beyond the scope of this conversation. Gulf of Mexico jurisdiction is marginally as follows. The US EEZ starts at a line in the west at about the mouth of the Rio Grande and proceeds to the 26 degrees north latitude line and then east. Somewhere around the mouth of the Mississippi, the line jumps north for about 25 miles, curls around to the east, then starts curling south following the Florida shoreline 200 miles out. The line bisects the Straights of Florida at about 79 degrees west and runs east between Cuba and Florida. Then is the 12 mile limit, which stands as the federal water line. Anything inside 12 miles is in the United States. Then is the State waters boundary. It is considered 9 miles for Texas, Alabama, and Florida, but in reality it is 3 leagues for some of those states, or 10.4 miles. Louisiana changed theirs, but I don't know if the change has taken effect.

LewisEvans is correct, the captain's right to search knows no boundaries. If he suspects a person is carrying something in a cavity that is detrimental to the safety and security of his vessel, than a cavity search is completely justified. HOWEVER. Anyone who would do that to a revenue passenger would never have another one. If someone tried to board and I suspected they had something with them that would be detrimental to the safety and security of my vessel, I would refuse them permission to board and bound them over to the proper authorities. The Masters rights on a vessel are absolute. He has to answer to his port state authorities, to recognized law enforcement for the territory he is in, and to his home office. Aside from that, his word is literally law on the vessel. Don't mistake Masters Authority for what is right and proper for a charter operation in Florida. This thread is about charter operations 10 miles offshore, not high seas law.

The Master does not have to submit to local authority, sort of. If a Florida State Trooper came to my boat and asked to search it, I could say no. Same for Monroe County Sheriff's department. I may only be searched by competent marine authority such as Coast Guard. I have given up that right in the case of the Florida Fish Cops to be allowed to operate in the Florida Keys National Marine Sanctuary. However, if I choose to mouth off to a FSP Officer and tell him he isn't welcome on my vessel, I'll have CGLE here in the blink of an eye. They can search, detain me, anything they want to whenever they want, without a warrant. If local LE showed up, I would ask them to wait until the CG showed up, just because I don't know how boat savvy the FSP guy is, I'd rather have a representative from the flag state there to help keep the boat out of trouble.

Reckdiver may say to anyone who will listen that he is only a taxi driver. Oh, how I hate that term, and the Coast Guard does too. Turns out, they think that the safety record of US flagged dive boats sucks, and that's the main reason they think so. I'm not putting words in Reckdivers mouth, I don't know if he thinks he is a taxi driver or not, but am responding directly to KWS post above. The Coast Guard has recently promulgated an advisory to dive operations regarding recreational dive vessels and how they conduct business. The era of the Taxi Driver and the complete disregard for what happens to the diver once they get off the boat is long over. The diver may be responsible for his or her actions underwater, but the Captain is now responsible to give proper briefings before boarding, before diving, and between dive sites. The "I'm just a taxi driver" defense is indefensible. Hehehe.

The presence or absence of a customer GPS onboard poses no threat to vessel or customer safety. The Master is within his rights to search the customers bags, but taking such action is not politically astute while offshore. Confiscation of such a device if found is sketchy unless it is declared beforehand to be a contraband item, because such a device would not normally be categorized as such. Destruction or abandonment of the device would be sketchier indeed since the device proved no threat to the safety or security of the vessel. I still think you'd have a hard time getting a CG LE to not giggle when you filed the report.

 

[RJP]

So what do these dive boats with secret coordinates to wrecks they only know about do when they leave port hundreds of times a year to shake the competition from following them? Must be tough to lose a tail at 6 knots and 20 miles of visibility to the horizon.

If your boat only does 6kt you've got bigger problems than someone following you. :d

 

[redacted]

If your boat only does 6kt you've got bigger problems than someone following you. :d

Six knots might work fine. The tail would run out of beer by the 2nd day.

 

[Reck Diver]

common sense is severely lacking nowadays - especially in some of today's children. I've seen elementary school children plagiarizing websites and then passing them it off as their own work (the instances i'm using was in regards to some poems and needless to say those particular students received an "F") -- and more than one used the same website & poem and didn't think it was wrong at all - we found the website and original poem by an easy Google search. So they are going to end up being the ones scamming the GPS co-ordinates when they are told they are not supposed to.

Maybe they learned that from our Vice-President

http://www.bnd.com/2012/11/05/2384820/recalling-plagiarism-by-biden.html

 

[Scuba-dan]

Um, if they dont want me to log coordinates, are they gonna deny me to bring my phone in my bag because it has a GPS unit?
dont think Id use an op like that tbh..

Also now the newer cameras have built in GPS so when you take a picture it records the GPS coordinates. But they probably don't know that.

 

[ScubaSteve]

Also now the newer cameras have built in GPS so when you take a picture it records the GPS coordinates. But they probably don't know that.

Well they do now! Thanks a whole frig of a lot for bursting that out for the public to see . I was just about to release a ring of sneaky divers to steal the super secret dive sites through the process of manipulated still image taking on the boats. And you ruined it.

 

[redacted]

Well they do now! Thanks a whole frig of a lot for bursting that out for the public to see . I was just about to release a ring of sneaky divers to steal the super secret dive sites through the process of manipulated still image taking on the boats. And you ruined it.

You could probably have made hundreds of dollars, before expenses.

 

[Wookie]

You could probably have made hundreds of dollars, before expenses.

or maybe even tens...

 

[NAM001]

Funny you shold mention that because I think they realize when you make the players sign such agreements ,that can get very extensive, it is bad for PR. They make up for it in the design of things like mim and max bet limits to insure the house advantage. That house advantage more than adaquately covers the loss from card counters. The casino example that would apply here is to make a big win at an indian casino and they refuse to pay off because,,,,, they are indians and it is thier casino and they have ultimate authority to designate any machine as broke at any time, there for negating the jackpot winning. Now do they tell you that when you walk in. Heck no they dont. That would stop thier cash flow. "The withholding of such ilicit gambling payoff practices is the key to our occupation and ability to make a living" Anyone heard that before. The only difference in indian casinos and the sea captains assumed rights is that the casino does not have to transit through others area of authority. Untill the casino leaves The reservation its governance is by the indian nations and not the gaming commisions. And are generally protected from federal and local regulation. Vegas or Atlantic city could never get away with the antics the indian reservations are allowed to engage in. So yes they have the trump card when it comes to setting the rules. But imagine when the casino pushes thier ultimate authority to include nightly masacres at sunset on the prarrie patio. Someone woud suggest that things have gone too far. The casino will say you were told when you entered. and the customer says I thought it was an enactment not a real masacre. They will say you should have read the agreement more closely and thank you for your cash , now time for paleface to go home, good by.

Do the casinos ask you to sign an agreement to not count cards?