Teaching it Neutral Style... a paradigm shift in Scuba instruction

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

If you are talking about the confined water dives, when skill training is done, there should be no current. It is not allowed by standards.

If you are talking about the open water dives, when skills are evaluated, there is no reason they can't be doing those skills in mid water in the current. A student swimming along near you in mild current can clear the mask, take it off, replace, it etc. Of course, they won't be able to do it that way if they were only taught to do the skills on the knees on the knees prior to that. In the pool, I tell students that if they are in 400 feet of water, they won't be able to kneel on the bottom to replace a mask, so they do it in midwater. By that point in the class, they have had enough experience with buoyancy that it is not a problem.

If the current is such that it is problematic, then we should not be doing the dives there.
 
Last edited:
How does this work in a current? Keeping your students firmly planted on the bottom, would seem to simplify things in this type of condition.
Is that how you do your skills in a current? If that's how you have to clear your mask or find your regulator, then it would make sense. However, if you want your students neutral all the time, then making them kneel is nothing but an excuse to justify your laziness.
 
Current--I've been in some wicked ones, though not as a Drift Diver in the known sense. Clearing a mask or retrieving a reg (which I have yet to have to do in 10 years)?--what's the difference current, not, or kneeling in sand? Removing and replacing unit or weight belt?--not something I'm gunna practise at the Destin, FL Bridge at mid tide.
 
No, PADI did not require it, but the degree to which they have advocated it is frankly encouraging...In that discussion, I got the very clear sense that the idea was new, and they were a bit defensive about the status quo.

Yeah if they had made teaching neutral part of the standards then I would have first hand knowledge of many instructors in violation of standards. My personal observation is that many dive pros don't seem to have great skills themselves, to say nothing of teaching these skills to students.

Maybe I'm pessimistic but I don't see PADI making teaching neutral mandatory even though some members of their leadership team thinks it turns out better students, at least in the short to medium term, because they have a vested financial interest in not doing so. To do so would really thin out the instructor ranks if enforcement was any good, and we all know that it is really hard to get someone to understand something if his/her salary depends on him/her not understanding that particular something.

What I would like to see is for this neutral style of teaching to become part of the standards and failing to do so to be considered a violation. HQ might consider offering assistance in the form of workshops for instructors who themselves need help with these skills or teaching these skills. I feel that PADI is in a dominant enough market position to push through changes like this, it is simply a question of whether they can muster up the political will internally to do so.

My job was to try to convince teachers to adopt revolutionary new (and highly effective) methods. It was like shoveling against the tide. I learned that as long as they are allowed to do what they have always done, they will continue with the familiar routines until they see the difference with their own eyes. The same is true of scuba instruction. Until old-style instructors see it done differently and see how much difference it makes, they are unlikely to change.

The thing is that the dive centre I refer to in my earlier post knows about such teaching methods but choose to carry on with business as usual. I still DM for them on a semi-regular basis and most of their full time crew have seen first-hand the change in my proficiency post-fundies. My observation is that they probably dismissed it as a GUE thing. For example, one of the instructors who in my opinion is more inclined towards the neutral style of instruction than his colleagues told his group of AOW students that the trim position and frog kick were something cave divers did. It is hugely frustrating when instructors make comments like this but as a mere DM I have little standing to correct them, and it would also not be professional to undermine an instructor in front of the students.

The conclusion I drew from my personal experience is that any such changes to the prevailing on the knees methodology will have to be driven from within the internal PADI organization for it to gain traction among the instructor corp and dive centres, at least in my part of the world. I am hopeful that organization insiders like boulderjohn who have the ears of the higher-ups in PADI will be able to drive institutional changes to instruction methodology, but I'm not holding my breath waiting for it to happen.

Setting aside my personal gripes about PADI, I am curious if any of the instructors who went from the old way to teaching neutral and in trim can tell me about whether and how execution of any skills have changed with the new teaching philosophy. One example I can think of is that there is little need to teach the sweeping regulator recovery if you teach in trim, other than that current PADI standards require it (I thought the old 5th DX exaggerated reg recovery was just plain silly). I've never seen a PADI class taught in the neutral and trim manner so this should be enlightening.
 
I was--that was quite a few years ago.

I began to experiment first with refresher classes. I figured, hey, they're already certified, they should be able to do this. Then I did it with Discover Scuba, and when I realized I could get students in a 1.5 hour Discover Scuba pool session looking better than the students finishing the full confined water sessions for the OW course, I was convinced I needed to make a change.

John, okay so its CW1 or CW for DSD in a pool. Students are all geared up. What steps, in sequence, do you take to get students neutral as they learn the basic skills and beyond? How do you brief them? Interested in picking up different techniques. Thanks.
 
Maybe I'm pessimistic but I don't see PADI making teaching neutral mandatory even though some members of their leadership team thinks it turns out better students, at least in the short to medium term, because they have a vested financial interest in not doing so. To do so would really thin out the instructor ranks if enforcement was any good, and we all know that it is really hard to get someone to understand something if his/her salary depends on him/her not understanding that particular something.

That's a bingo
 
Since folks have "glommed" onto PADI in this discussion, how about the other Agencies?

Which of the many, many, agencies demand as a Standard that all is taught neutrally buoyant. Beginner, recreational open water.

Note that I mean it is in the Standards for the Agency. Not "my agency allows me to do what I want" stuff, but a Standard such that if the Instructor did not teach the students neutrally buoyant they would be in violation.
 
Rather than turn this into another agency bashing or my-agency-is-better-than-yours thread, perhaps we can go by the spirit of the OP and talk about methods and techniques to transition new divers to neutral buoyancy early in their training.

This way, both students and instructors reading this thread can benefit.
 
That was not an "agency bashing" question. It was an honest question fully in line with the OP's Post and the Thread's content.
 
As the OP, it should be noted that I don't teach PADI and never have. But that's really not the point. It never should be the point.

Will the agency I teach OW under allow me to start my students on their knees? Of course. Will I? Of course not. No agency ever certifies a single diver. Individual instructors certify divers and kneeling has been a part of that process since the dawn of instruction. You might run into someone who wants to reinvent history and tell us that neutral buoyancy was so much better 'back in the day', but that's a lie based on faulty memories. I have seen classes kneeling as far back as 1969.

Starting the class off the bottom is indeed a paradigm shift. Thousands of instructors think it's impossible, not because their agency told them that, but because their instructor, and the instructor before them all learned through kneeling. It's a myth promulgated through IDCs teaching it as a way to control students. So blaming any agency for this is completely myopic. Expecting any agency to now require all of their instructors to change to this new fangled approach is not just wishful thinking it would fool hardy and frankly, it could result in injuries.

Teaching it neutral style is a lifestyle choice for an instructor. It is and should be a grass roots effort from all of us to improve Scuba instruction for all the agencies.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/peregrine/

Back
Top Bottom