Tell Dive Store Owners How You Feel

[Hallmac]

I would prefer to see dive shops and dive instruction separated ... it's an inherent conflict of interest. The business priority of a dive shop is to offer sales and service of dive equipment ... and do so in a way that assures a reasonable level of profit to the business owner. The business priority of a dive instructor should be to their students, by offering quality instruction at a reasonable price. When you combine the two, you put the instructor into a conflict between serving the best interest of the shop or the best interest of their students. This often results in the students not getting the quality of training they deserve, or precious class time being used to sell dive gear.

Would love to discuss this with you but don't want to divert the thread. I feel a scuba center has a very strong reason to insure students get the best instruction available, but believe most stores don't handle it correctly.

 

[TSandM]

1. How you feel about dive shops being affiliated with a specific agency? Would you prefer generic stores? Do you feel more comfortable or more alienated by agency branding?
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I don't pay much attention to it, honestly; the only exception being that a shop that offers GUE training is likely to have the types of items I'm likely to be looking for.

2. How do you feel about education? Are the time frames for classes too long, too short or just right? Do you like having lots of specialties? Or, would you prefer less specialty education? Did seeing all the educational opportunities excite you or almost turn you off to diving?
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Having been both a student and a professional participating in training, I'm very ambivalent about this. I think many classes are simply too short in total duration to allow students to integrate learning effectively. The shop Peter teaches for has nine hours of pool time . . . but it's spread out over three weeks, and two of the sessions are AFTER the first OW dives, so students can bring their experiences in OW back to the pool and work on what they found difficult. I know of other shops with the same, or nearly the same total pool time, but it's done over two days; people don't have time for reflection and integration.

I think the program our LDS runs would turn out people very decently prepared to do dives within OW limits in good conditions (warm water, good viz), but I think most people do not come out of the program as very solid cold water divers, no matter how hard we try. It just takes more time than four immersions to master heavy exposure protection, heavy weight, and low visibility. That makes it good that there are a lot of "specialty" classes, which require shorter time commitments and aren't terribly expensive as individual courses -- that makes it easy to encourage people to do more training, whereas it would be more difficult, I think, to try to sell a several week combined commitment at a thousand dollars or more of cost, all at once.

What matters more than length is the quality of the instruction. Teaching to minimums is not going to create a good diver, no matter how long the class is.

And unlike other posters, I think having classes associated with dive shops that sell gear is just fine, so long as the dive shop doesn't sell people their most profitable equipment, without regard to the students' needs. I do get furious, seeing the number of people who come to class in the most expensive fins and the crazy high mark-up snorkels, when a good many of them are never going to pursue this sport with any seriousness. And don't get me started on split fins on OW students . . .

But training creates divers, and divers need gear; so long as the shop doesn't have Byzantine rules about instructors only diving equipment the shop sells, and so long as the shop sells people gear that matches their needs, I see a pleasant symbiosis possible that benefits everyone.

3. Do you feel comfortable or a little nervous walking into a new shop? Why or why not? Are you happy or unhappy with your local shop? Do you go because you enjoy it or because they are "the only game in town" or have some form of emotional blackmail in place keeping you loyal out of fear?
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I like going into dive shops. Some are pleasant and welcoming, and a sad number are kind of shabby, poorly kept and poorly lighted places that make neither diving or owning dive equipment seem appealing. But they all have that lovely neoprene smell . . . and I've never been treated badly walking into a new shop. I've been treated with indifference, though.

4. What improvements can be made to the inventory? Too many choices? Too little choices? Too much fluff and not enough of what you need? Or, are you happy with the inventory? What products would you like to see taken off the shelves? What would you like to see carried in the store?
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I'd love to see my local dive shop carry the stuff I routinely buy . . . and they do carry some of it. Consumables like dry suit zipper lube and Seal Saver, and repair stuff like Aquaseal and Cotol. Bolt snaps -- my old LDS, which folded, had an extensive selection of SS boltsnaps and double-enders in various sizes. Hoses in a wide variety of lengths (and with no hassles attached!). Although it's undoubtedly true that the biggest profit for the shop is made in selling the new diver his first complete gear setup, the continuing diver represents a market that will only make sales if the customer is IN the shop -- and we come in to get the stuff we routinely use. Once we're in the shop, that's the chance to show us the newest backup lights (I'm a sucker for lights) or a dry suit heater setup, or the newest undergarment . . . continuing divers replace and upgrade, but all too often, they don't do it through their LDS, because they have no reason to go there.

5. Do you think a dive shop should just sell scuba equipment? Or, would you like to see something else in the store as well? If so, what?
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I've been in Sports Chalet. My brain has a bad reaction to a sports department store; I find it hard to believe that the scuba section of such a store will be a high quality place.

6. What kind of employee do you most want in the store? What kind of employee makes you want to go elsewhere?
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Friendly is what I'd like to see. One of the saddest things to me is that so many dive shops are manned by the owner. Owners have headaches, and those headaches are all too often visible and audible when you're in the shop. I really don't like dealing with bitter people.

7. Do you like going into the dive shop when the owner is there or do you try to only go when other employees are working?
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See above.

8. What do you consider timely service on equipment? Do you think service prices are fair or a rip-off?
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A week is fine. Two weeks is annoying, and anything longer than that and I'm finding someplace else for service. Prices are absurd. I have serviced regulators, and it doesn't take that long, and it isn't rocket science. Yes, the equipment and the tools cost money, but $125 to service a regulator is a ripoff. Why do you think I learned to do my own?

9. What about gas fills? Do you feel hassled when you need an air fill, nitrox fill, or trimix fill? Or, is this normally an enjoyable part of going diving? What do you like or don't like about getting fills? Does your shop charge by the fill or by the cubic foot? Would you rather pay by the fill or cubic foot? Do they fill the gases that you need or do you end up going elsewhere for different fills?
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Our LDS (the one we teach for) fills Nitrox. Once a week, if there are enough requests for it for the owner to do it. (And as you can imagine, there aren't that many requests.) We don't get our fills there.

I used to have a yearly deal on fills -- one price, paid once a year, and all the Nitrox I could use was covered. It brought my per-fill cost down to about $4 or $5, and got the owner a big cash influx at a time of year when cash was scarce. That shop is gone (and I don't think because of that plan, because I frequently asked the owner how it worked for him, and he said far more people bought it than used the amount of gas they paid for). I now pay by the cubic foot, which is extremely nice. Paying a full fill price for a topoff on a tank you used 500 psi out of -- or worse, paying TWO fill prices for a topoff on a set of doubles -- is really unpalatable.

10. Anything else? This is a great opportunity to put it all out there.

Dive shops can evolve, or they can die. Owners who put energy and excitement into selling diving, selling gear, making customers good deals and providing good service will prosper. I think ScubaToys and Dive Right in Scuba are good examples of this. Dive shop owners who sit in their offices and grumble and grouse about how hard things are and how they can't make a living drive people right out of their stores. In a world where I can buy my goods from Mike at DRIS almost as easily as I can buy them five minutes from my house, the local shop simply can't depend on convenience as the sales gimmick any more. A good shop has to have good energy -- that means cheerful personnel, good lighting (I think a lot of owners don't realize how much mood is changed by a poorly lit, inadequately cleaned, or poorly painted/floored store), artfully displayed goods, and an overall upbeat "feel", which is hard thing to describe or measure, but I think is VERY obvious to the customer who walks through the door.

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[SnorkelLA]

Training agencies often try to help dive store owners be more successful by providing professional journals, books, and videos designed top help the store owner provide better customer service and enjoy financial success. In my opinion, some, or even much of this "advice" helps the agency more than the shop owner. Also, in my experience, most shop owners do a very poor job of listening to their customers. Much like a parent doesn't listen to his child, even after the child is 30 years old and has an M.B.A. from the Wharton School of Business, dive shop owners remember the diver taking his open water class and can't quite grasp the fact that after a couple years or even decades of diving that diver might have a valid opinion or two.

I'd like to ask SBers to use this thread to tell dive shop owners what they like, what they don't like and how things could be done better to make visiting a dive center a more positive experience.

Some possible topics include:

1. How you feel about dive shops being affiliated with a specific agency? Would you prefer generic stores? Do you feel more comfortable or more alienated by agency branding?
As long as they teach it well and don't let it get in the way of what I WANT, and make sure class, training and gear are seperate I'm fine. What I really can't stand though is a dive shop that tries to keep me from buying what I need for my JACKET BCD just because they sell back inflates and try to press buying one onto me. I've walked right out of stores when they try to impress me to buy something because they say it's so much BETTER than my setup. I have no problem with showing me your gear and telling me why you like it, but I've got a setup that is a lot more costly and well-made and better optimized than many of the LDS owners and employees I see that try to bash on the types of equipment I use and call their stuff "better" because they teach a certain style of diving. So, just keep gear, training and class seperate and they're good

2. How do you feel about education? Are the time frames for classes too long, too short or just right? Do you like having lots of specialties? Or, would you prefer less specialty education? Did seeing all the educational opportunities excite you or almost turn you off to diving?
My class portion of my OW was very short back in the day- PADI seemed to be all about getting as many people certified as quick as possible, and so was the dive shop I got certified with. Luckily I was comfortable in the water at the time, but one person quit the class halfway through because of anxiety, but it probably wasn't the LDS's fault
3. Do you feel comfortable or a little nervous walking into a new shop? Why or why not? Are you happy or unhappy with your local shop? Do you go because you enjoy it or because they are "the only game in town" or have some form of emotional blackmail in place keeping you loyal out of fear?
I'm always a little aphrehensive when walking into a new shop, because I've met two types of people in my time diving: The LDS owners who are dicks and hate life, and the LDS owners/employees that are in it because they love the sport and are passionate about getting others involved and have friendly service. These two types of people are not to be mistaken with "to the point" or "naive". My LDS is the only GOOD one in town who stocks the brands I like, but sometimes equipment is marked up, but I don't mind paying higher prices to keep the local diving economy strong, which it isn't. And the guy that runs it struggles to keep the shop "positively buoyant"

4. What improvements can be made to the inventory? Too many choices? Too little choices? Too much fluff and not enough of what you need? Or, are you happy with the inventory? What products would you like to see taken off the shelves? What would you like to see carried in the store?
At my LDS, too little choices in Regs, and too few sizes in BCDs. The only main regs my LDS stocks is the Sherwood SR1, which isn't great at all for the types of diving people around here do, and a few Mares and Aeris mid-range regs, and only 1 or 2 types of octos.
5. Do you think a dive shop should just sell scuba equipment? Or, would you like to see something else in the store as well? If so, what?
I like my dive shops to be dive shops. Save the "everything is here" crap for Wal-Mart
6. What kind of employee do you most want in the store? What kind of employee makes you want to go elsewhere?
The kind that will put up with my indecisiveness for as long as it takes for me to buy something. My LDS knows that when I come around, I'm going to be spending big, but I weigh ALL options. Most of the time only the owner is around but even though he's the "if he doesn't buy it in a timely manner I'm going to my office and letting ______ handle it" type he's very knowledgeable.

7. Do you like going into the dive shop when the owner is there or do you try to only go when other employees are working?
I like the owner of my LDS, he's a great guy, but he doesn't like to pussyfoot around unless he has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING IN THE WORLD to do. Rarely are other employes in the store
8. What do you consider timely service on equipment? Do you think service prices are fair or a rip-off?
Most of the time I can get my regs back to me in a few days, very timely. Although that's probably because I spend hundreds to thousands a month at their store
9. What about gas fills? Do you feel hassled when you need an air fill, nitrox fill, or trimix fill? Or, is this normally an enjoyable part of going diving? What do you like or don't like about getting fills? Does your shop charge by the fill or by the cubic foot? Would you rather pay by the fill or cubic foot? Do they fill the gases that you need or do you end up going elsewhere for different fills?
Most of the time if I go diving I'm going with the LDS on the trips they frequently take, so I just tell them to put it on my account at have x amount of whatever I want on the truck for me.

10. Anything else? This is a great opportunity to put it all out there.
LDS owners, I know it's hard to stay in business when so much of the people in this world don't understand that getting certified is EASY. They think that SCUBA diving is some far-fetched thing and don't even know how to get started. But LDS owners, even though you may not have spare money for stuff lying around, BUY ADVERTISING in local magazines, TV and newspapers. I work in TV and Movies. Trust me when I say your business with increase TENFOLD if you simply get a well-made commercial done (not the stupid jingle commercials for car insurance), but straight, to the point commercials that inform people that you are HERE and that SCUBA training is easy and fun.
Hopefully, this will grow into a very constructive and informative thread that a shop owner can read and hear the opinions of divers rather than what they are told divers want.

My answers in bold

 

[nimoh]

I vote using these handy, government-approved ballot forms.

View attachment 126025

For most dive ops, the minimum vote is a ballot form signed by Ben Franklin.

 

[flots am]

For most dive ops, the minimum vote is a ballot form signed by Ben Franklin.

Then I guess they don't get my vote.

See, it's working already!

Democracy and capitalism all rolled into one.

flots

 

[lowviz]

...//... 1. How you feel about dive shops being affiliated with a specific agency? Would you prefer generic stores? Do you feel more comfortable or more alienated by agency branding? ...//...

They often don't have a choice if they want to remain profitable. But even given this handicap, they can become (or remain) superior with respect to service. My LDS has ways of getting what I need, makes life simple for me and profitable for them.

...//... 1. Hire employees that are knowledgeable about the store and diving. Try to keep a relatively permanent group of employees rather than college kids that just need a job for the semester. ...//...

Yes, that would be the difference between a dive shop and a merchandising outlet.

...//... 4. Don't try and convince me that your store/products are better than a competitor by trashing them. If yours is that good, show me why. If you have to resort to degrading to sell your stuff, I'm probably not interested. ...//... .

Big "turn off" for me too.

I recently brought my Fred Tagge custom BP's to my LDS to discuss "things" with an owner. He was both impressed and interested, asked a lot of questions about the design. (working on this as a DIY project, will post thread when ready) I could have reached out and touched name brand BP's hanging on his wall. Pissed because he lost a sale? Not in the least!

I also wanted to find old Highland shoulder and hip D-rings. Posted this on SB. No response. My LDS found a supplier and ordered all the parts to make my harnesses for both aluminum and SS BP's. Parts got there before I could. Got the webbing from them also, and the cutting tool, gas fills, monthly club meetings, lots of good advice etc, etc, etc...

 

[ljwillia]

We have two shops in my area. We were certified at one and bought our gear from the other. I really like both shops. The instruction at the first shop is top notch. When it came time to buy our own gear the shop we went there first. The staff was young and unhelpful. We had a lot of questions and needed guidance. They were unable to provide the help we needed.

We went to the other shop and they were wonderful. They spent hours with us, explaining information and laying out choices. They recognized the competition they faced on the internet and priced accordingly. However, both my husband and I realized that the individual attention we received comes at a price. As new divers, we were more then willing to pay slightly more for that level of attention.

They didn't carry the computer I wanted but said our other LDS did. They told me if I wanted to order it from the other shop, they would be happy to set it up and help me learn it (oceanic vs aeris-still don't understand THAT whole thing!).

The first shop, where we did our training, has wonderful people. I still feel disloyal buying our equipment elsewhere. But it seems to be run more as a family then a business. I had a bad experience ordering my computer. Lots of delays and excuses before it finally arrived. I almost gave up and ordered on-line. The price was the same, but I really wanted a local shop to have the business. That experience tainted my memory of their competence in training. I had to remind myself that the instructors are not the sales folks. Can't judge one on the basis of the of the other. We have taken other classes with them and will continue to dive with them. But we are looking for opportunities to dive with the other now as well.

Given the economy, its a really tough time for shops. This is not an inexpensive sport. I understand low inventory levels. They just can't afford to stock all of this equipment. I have no problem waiting for it. I do want to feel as if I'm being taken care of and that my business is appreciated. Dive shop owners are not always great business people with an understanding of and appreciation for customer service.

 

[Wolfie]

I love my lds very old school. Small shop with lots of small talk. Good prices and price match. And recently scored a suite deal on a lightly used DUI cf 200. Heading to the great lakes baby.

 

[Racer_X]

The store owner has a theory... It is easy to say No, and hard to say Yes all the time, but if we can make you the customer happy, you will hopefully come back and bring your friends along.

This. Any service industry that specializes in saying "we don't do that" usually won't survive. I teach my teams to say "Yes, but" - of course we can do it, but here's how we can do it, and here's what we need from you. We're adults and divers, we understand limits - NDL and otherwise.

Telling me that the course I'm about to take, given my level of experience, is going to be useless outside of a checkmark and a tune up before I put my money down is a win. Of course, I needed the stupid checkmark, but that's another thread.

Matching internet prices is a win for everybody - LDS makes a hopefully profitable sale, I walk out with a new shiny, and we all stay friends.

In return, I expect the upsell. Dive shops have to make money, and I understand that the upsell is part of any sales process. Don't used car salesman me and we'll be fine. Point out a couple of things I might want to think about, then back off and take my money.

 

[drbill]

I'm very fortunate... I like going in to my primary dive shop (Catalina SCUBA Luv) and also enjoy interacting with the other shops on the island (Catalina Diver's Supply, Ron Moore's Dive Catalina). The employees at the shops are pretty knowledgeable with several being far more qualified divers than I am (even after 50 years of practice on my part!). My only wish is that they employed more drop dead gorgeous, brilliant and experience single women! Oh, well... you can't have everything!