The Ethics of Full Disclosure on ScubaBoard

[Jerome O'Neil]

They get advice from expert divers. They get advice from professed expert divers. They get advice from n00bs, and sea captains and dive operators and equipment reps and tech guys and cave dudes and treasure hunters and astronauts and every other sort of internet forum dweller.

Someone that doesn't check out said advice is entitled to exactly what they paid for.

 

[cool_hardware52]

Hey, it's apparent to me that you have to have the last word here.

Gotta love folks that invoke the you have to have the last word line and then immediately violate it.

Nothing adds to one's credibility like that move.

Tobin

 

[The Chairman]

There's just too many other products on the market to choose from that don't force you to deal with a man who makes Donald Trump look humble.

Oh snap! He thought I was harsh. Odds are he's going to report this as a 'personal attack', but it's not. It's not gentle, but it's Bob's unvarnished opinion that he has a right to express. A personal attack is simply calling someone a name like "fat bastard". This is a criticism, and criticisms are the businessman's best friend. You can't improve your product or approach without people telling you when you've failed. I never ever report or delete a criticism about me or ScubaBoard. OK, OK, some are indeed laughable, but I do try to learn something from every one that's leveled at me. Every now and then, a criticism is a compliment in disguise.

I talked about this thread with @cerich today. He was on his way back from the Chicago Show and wasn't too happy with it. He has markets through individuals on SB and has been quite successful with it. Of course, he requires them to disclose their relationship because that's only right. Let's face it. The interwebs has changed everything. We used to be beholden to the local dive shop for information as well as classes and gear. The more you bought, the more info you were given. No longer! We can get more information right here, and it gets vetted as we go. We're not stuck with just one manufacturer anymore. If they piss us off, we have any number of options. We vote with our wallets and our fins.

 

[cool_hardware52]

It's more his insistence that he will ONLY sell you what HE thinks you need, rather than what you want to buy. His company, his right, I suppose.

Yup. I pretty routinely turn down sales when I have concerns about the application, fear it may be unsafe, etc. I also frequently advise divers to start with the basics and see if their perceptions about what they need match reality.

I view that as my obligation, and most of my customers appreciate that fact. I've no doubt bruised a few egos, but I will always prefer that to knowing I enabled unsafe behaviors orsold gear that divers will very likely soon leave at home.

As you quite correctly note there are numerous other vendors happy to take your money no questions asked.

BTW What exactly did I ever refuse to sell you?

Tobin

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

BTW What exactly did I ever refuse to sell you?

Tobin

... a longer inflator hose for my wing ... I ended up purchasing it from Dive Gear Express.

You and I both know I'm far from the only person who's made such a request of you, only to be told "you don't need it". I didn't ask you what I needed ... I told you what I wanted. Since you wouldn't sell it to me, I went elsewhere.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[cool_hardware52]

I talked about this thread with @cerich today. He was on his way back from the Chicago Show and wasn't too happy with it. He has markets through individuals on SB and has been quite successful with it. Of course, he requires them to disclose their relationship because that's only right.

I've been quite clear that with full disclosure I have no objection to the "Tupperware" or "Avon" marketing model per se. Perfectly reasonable approach in the current environ of ever fewer dive shops. Not sure I understand what Chris would have to be upset about.

Requiring his resellers to disclose their affiliation is exactly what I would encourage. Zero problems with that.

Was the OP referring to Chris's new effort? I never got that impression.

My objection remains with firms that encourage the creation of conflicts of interest.

Tobin

 

[The Chairman]

I ended up purchasing it from Dive Gear Express.

Wait... you didn't die? What are the odds?

 

[kelemvor]

Sometimes it is hard to tell where the line is.

For example, @Deep Six gear. I am a big fan of the company and what they are doing, and I try to advocate support for them wherever I can. Because of their business model, if a customer uses my reference code, they get a discount on purchases. I also get a commission on EVERY purchase they make after that, as the referring instructor.

Now, I had to decide whether to put my referral link in my signature line or paste it into posts when referring people to the site. I chose not to for the reasons John has described up top. I also loaned a set to a diver here that has nothing to do with them and was skeptical. I encouraged him to write up a honest review of the regs which he did.

I know that I would refer them anyway, I wouldn't have an account if I didn't, but since no-one is in my head there is always the possibility of misinterpretation. By removing that link, I now have nothing to gain from a referral so hopefully that will un-muddy the waters.

That being said, is it possible that at some future date I might get an extra coffee mug or T-shirt from Chris in an order as a thank you for my support? Maybe.

Would that be wrong? I don't think so but I can definitely see where some may perceive that as coloring my views.

I believe that an upfront disclosure is valuable, I also don't believe that it is our job as mods to go play detective to see whether someone is on the level. Obvious cases of misrepresentation, sure, but trying to find out if Bob and Fred have a financial arrangement is way outside my pay-grade as a mod.

I'm someone who is merely a customer when it comes to scuba. Personally, I think that the relationship you describe between Deep Six and yourself is exactly the sort of thing I'd like to see mentioned in your bio or preferably signature line. I tend to have a favorable opinion of Deep6 based on my experiences with the guy when he was with another well regarded company, but I digress... I think you should disclose the relationship in an easy to find location.

BTW, if I don't like how someone is marketing their stuff, I just don't buy from them.

That only works if we KNOW someone is marketing the stuff. I think the distinction is the real crux of the original post.

Personally, I tend to discount reviews for someone that I know has a vested interest in selling the product (or selling a competing product). I'd much rather see a review posted by Susy 6 dives a year than a dive pro who sells some brand of scuba gear 5 days a week. Or if I don't discount the review entirely, I try to weight it in my personal opinions.

Being in medicine for the last 32 years, I have watched massive changes regarding "gifts". Why would any manufacturer give "free" merchandise to a potentially influential diver? I'm sorry, I do not believe that there are no expectations. I would ask those involved in this type of transaction, what is the purpose of the activity and how is it justified? Everyone pays for these gifts, it is included in the marketing expenses of the manufacturer and passed on to the consumer. I could say much more, I'll leave it at that. Personally, I would include these gifts with the graft and corruption of business practices.

I'm surprised that is allowed at all in such a highly regulated industry. I work in telecommunications, and my employer strictly forbids such transactions. There are large sections of our employment agreement dedicated to it, and even training classes on what constitutes a gift etc. Basically, if the giver or the recipient have any kind of business relationship with my employer, gifts are a no-no. It's a model that I think SHOULD be pervasive in all industries - although it really sucked when I had to turn down some choice hockey tickets a few years ago!

 

[Tom Winters]

Whew...slogged through this to the end. Some of the opinions expressed were pretty strong, almost as strong as Ajax, the super strong bathroom cleaner...

 

[mdb]

Oh snap! He thought I was harsh. Odds are he's going to report this as a 'personal attack', but it's not. It's not gentle, but it's Bob's unvarnished opinion that he has a right to express. A personal attack is simply calling someone a name like "fat bastard". This is a criticism, and criticisms are the businessman's best friend. You can't improve your product or approach without people telling you when you've failed. I never ever report or delete a criticism about me or ScubaBoard. OK, OK, some are indeed laughable, but I do try to learn something from every one that's leveled at me. Every now and then, a criticism is a compliment in disguise.

I talked about this thread with @cerich today. He was on his way back from the Chicago Show and wasn't too happy with it. He has markets through individuals on SB and has been quite successful with it. Of course, he requires them to disclose their relationship because that's only right. Let's face it. The interwebs has changed everything. We used to be beholden to the local dive shop for information as well as classes and gear. The more you bought, the more info you were given. No longer! We can get more information right here, and it gets vetted as we go. We're not stuck with just one manufacturer anymore. If they piss us off, we have any number of options. We vote with our wallets and our fins.

Like you Doc, Chris is a pioneer.

New diver certifications have been dropping for over a decade.

The population of active divers is aging.

Many large distributors/manufacturers are jousting to take market share from each other.
They are not trying to grow the market.

A good number of dive stores are gone.

Some retailers have managed to prosper: DRIS is a good example, a small square footage store in
the Mid West that has built a following. There are other examples of course.

Until we attract new divers, we are going to continue to decline.

"Tech", CCR etc. will not appeal to most. Some may progress to that pursuit. Most will not start there.

The short/online courses produce new divers who do not have the confidence or skills to continue diving
past their vacation.

A return to patient and thorough training can result in confident open water divers who recommend diving
to their family and friends.

I hope that happens.

SB is the best world wide forum for active divers and those who are interested in diving.