The Great local dive shop vs. online debate

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Hey, DiverinAk,

How's the 60's music treating you now? I am training my granddaughter (age, 15 months) to enjoy the Everly Brothers, Peter, Paul and Mary, the Limelighters, and, yes, even the Kingston Trio!

At any rate, the mail order/on-line vs bricks and mortar controversy rages on... I have found the following to lead to a price break--sometimes:

Save your sheckels and buy a lot of gear at once and ask if they will give you a discount for doing so. Also, if you have some buddies who all want the same items, at the same time, ask the store owner--if you know who he/she is--privately if you can get a discount if you buy, say, 4 BCs and ---- all together. Hint: Don't ask in a loud voice at the peak of business! It is a sort of "club discount". Also, it helps if you shop and buy there regularly.

Just a thought. And, remember, some day you will need something sooner than you can get it over the net...then that "corner dive shop" looks pretty good.

By the way, I do not work in or own a dive shop!

Joewr

 
Hey Joewr, my father will be very happy to hear that you are encouraging another folk music fan. The Limeliters are still touring.. http://www.limeliters.com, my father is Alex.

As for the local dive shop. I did go in originally with over a $5,000.00 purchase, but I just didn't feel that the 7% discount was very reasonable. Especially when I had dropped over a thousand in the shop previously and was looking to spend more. Now if I'm spending between six and eight thousand in a year and can only get a 7 percent discount, that's just robbery in my book. All I was looking for was ten percent. I will still use the shop for small things, and training. I am on friendly terms with the owner, and we just agree to disagree, on price.
 
Manufacturers can and do dictate price ranges at which you must sell their stuff. They also vary their pricing levels over a wide range based on volume bought. Those who think the manufacturer can't dictate all sorts of conditions for the sale of their stuff (they think it's "crap") are not in the business of retailing scuba gear, or they'd know better.
It may not be "fair" and it may not sit right with you, but your local shop owner is under all sorts of agreements with his suppliers just to be able to sell their stuff in his store. This cuts both ways... the supplier guarantees that their stuff will not be offered at lower prices anywhere in exchange for the retailer agreeing to the price mark that guartantees the retailer a margin high enough to pay the bills. He'll usually cut margins for you on "packages" where he can hide the item prices under the overall price, which is also acceptable under the pricing arrangements with the manufacturer.
Any time you see greatly discounted major brands, it is either (1) counterfeit or (2) someone has decided to violate their agreement with his suppliers and either sell a bunch of stuff sideways (grey market) at low margin to get volume discounts on gear he doesn't have to support under warranty - so he can endure low margins and charge for taking care of the gear if it does come back in the front door - or to just violate the agreements outright in hopes of selling at a great enough distance that he doesn't have to provide the customary support that is so expensive, and the manufacturer won't get too many gripes (from customers or other retailers) and figure out what he's up to and cut him off.
------------------------------------------
Now, where is all this going? The demand for low profit/no profit merchandise has already overtaken some industries (personal computers are a prime example), and the Scuba equipment business will eventually get there, albeit much more slowly as the "life support equipment" behemoth is carved slowly away. It's easy to see the pressure in the posts here. All it'll take to truly accelerate the process is for one major company to remove all restrictions on resale of its stuff, and some enterprising dot com stock boy will offer the entire line - no support, no help, no knowledge - at a 2% margin... his business isn't Scuba, but commodity sales. He needn't know anything more about the products he's selling than the price he pays and the price he has to charge to move it out and still make a point or two on every sale. Overnight the attitude of the customer will be that any higher price is "crap" - and the retailer may as well hang it up - or - become a service only shop, where he charges for every piece of information he provides, every bit of advice, every helpful hint. Timing is critical; make the move too soon, and the shops still trying to make it the old way will run you under even while they are going bankrupt - wait too late and you'll be bankrupt. With margins gone from Scuba equipment, (after all, we want "fair" [translate "low"] prices, don't we? and so we'll buy from the 2% margin no frills guy on the internet) as customers we have to ask ourselves "what does the shop have to sell that will feed the families of the employees?" Service (annual inspections, repairs etc) and air.
Now, gang, put on your thinking caps and figure out how much those *must* cost to feed the shop employees and their families. After all, just taking retail out of the shop won't lower overhead by much at all, and we'll still want all the great info, courses, trips, repairs, rentals and air we've come to expect.
Today, air and service are subsidized by the relatively high margins on equipment. This benefits the "serious" (frequent) diver, since equipment purchases form a fractionally lower per-dive part of the overall cost of diving, and for those of us who dive a lot this arrangement keeps our per-dive costs down. If we support on-line buying we are just shooting ourselves in the foot - air and service costs will go through the roof. (unless you're *really* serious like a few of us who do all their own service and own our own compressor)
Still, the overall trend is toward internet buying with no frills, and I believe that's the way the industry will go, whether I like it or not.
Rick
 
Right on Rick.

As an authorized Scubapro dealer, I can tell you that mandatory MSRP's aren't a "load of crap". All US dealers signed an agreement to only sell at MSRP or face losing their dealership.

To Real-One:

Make sure that you get the return address of the on-line businesses you choose to do business with. That way you can mail your empty tanks to them for refills and maybe set up some on-line training courses with them. Ask them if they have any trips planned this weekend. Broken heel strap? Can they ship only one? Also, make sure to get the number of someone that just answers customers diving questions. Not a number to sell gear, just to answer questions.

Thanks, Ken

Now I feel better.
 
The only problem with some of the premises presented here is that they assume that the shop monkey’s can actually provide informed opinions and information, are competent and helpful.

I travel 130 miles one way to go to a dive shop when I need items that I can not get over the internet or just to talk shop. This is when the local shop is only 7 miles away and I have to drive by it when headed to the other one.

The local shop has “instructors” who have marginal skills, little to no intelligence and are generally rude. The service “technicians” are just parts swappers and have limited insight in to the how’s and why of gear. I have found that this is the case with the majority of dive shops.

When I do find a competent, knowledgeable and helpful shop/owner I love to do business with them. I use this criteria for all of my business and personal dealings. I am glad to see the growth of internet retailing, it provides a level of competitiveness that will force a change in current business practices which will hopefully weed out the marginal shops.

Brad
 
I agree totally with the last 2 posts. I'm not in the scuba business but the other one mentioned above. The one that has already fallen victim to the dot com stockboys. Believe me, you don't want it.

The dot coms aren't going to stay 2 hours late in the evening while you try on masks, then let you take three of 'em on your next trip to compare, then come back and pay for the one you keep afterwards. (not on 3% markup)

The dot coms aren't going to meet you at the shop at 6 am while you are on the way to the airport because the item you bought somewhere else needs fixed. (not on 3% markup)

The dot coms aren't going to pay somebody by the hour to stand around and chat with you all afternoon 'cause you don't have anything else to do. (not on 3% markup)

The dot coms aren't going to download your computers and give you your dives on a disk just because you don't want to buy the adapter cable. ( not on 3% markup)

I'm facing these things now in my business. People buy something on line to save a few bucks, then want me to come to thier house after supper to show them how to use it. They don't feel they should be paying for this service. And they explain that to me. Sometimes very graphicly.

I have 2 people that sit there all day and answer questions about products and how to use them. We recently started keeping track a little closer and found that only about 20% of the calls were for products purchased from us. The rest were from dot coms or Walmart, but they wouldn't answer questions. The manufacturers charge for support calls. So naturally, call the small local shop.

We support 14 familys in this small town of 4,000 people (actually 13 - most of my employees make more than I do).
I can't afford the free support for somebody elses product anymore. One support person is getting assigned other duties about the 1st of June. The other is leaving for college in August and won't be replaced.

I don't want to see this happen to the local dive shops. I'll miss the personnal service. Mine knows me, my type of diving, and what I need. I'll miss the comraderie with the staff and other customers. I'll miss the free instruction and advice. When you make your major purcahses online, or fight for another percent of discount, this is where you are heading.

The service comes with a price. To me it's worth it. Let your local dive shop make a decent living or it won't be there.

Tom
 
This button is not just hot! A British Prime Minister named Benjamin Disraeli once said, "For every complicated question there is a simple answer. And it is usually wrong!" This is probably the case with the internet vs. bricks and mortar controversy...

That said, I will note, for the record, that I do not shop at the two closest shops precisely because their staffs are not really helpful. But I live in the San Francisco Bay Area and we have numerous shops within driving distance--even at $2.00 a gallon!

I am glad the internet business are around for the times I need them. I am also glad the Bamboo Reef and Marin Skin Diving are around because I like shopping there and BS'ing with the staff/owners.

And my favorite quote: "De gustabus non disputandum est." Loose translations: "Different strokes for different folks."

Joewr
 
Well you can spend your money where you like. The fact that this particular shop didn't want to discuss discounts and the other shop around the corner said %15 without batting an eye tells me something.

What I was referring to as CRAP was the fact that the manufacturers are so restrictive. This ties the hands of the shop owner doesn't it? That's CRAP! I did not mean that the shop owner is stuck trying to sell quality gear. Maybe we just have too many middle men.

My point is that there is greed even in dive shops. The idea that the owner can't discount that much product by 10% and still make a profit is ludicrous. Especially when a shop in another state offers 15% off on any gear while you are a student there, and 10% off for life thereafter. I mentioned this to my local shop owner and he didn't budge.

He would rather lose the sale than sell at a discount. Certainly different strokes for different folks. Frankly I view this as the "old monopoly mentality". Many resellers in Alaska used to be the "only game in town". They could set prices and if you didn't like it, get in a plane or wait two weeks for mail order.

Now given that I only have 2 dive shops in driving distance, and one which doesn't have the word discount in the vocabulary, I am thankful that there are some on-line retailers and second day air freight.

Other than that, I also do not necessarily buy a car from the dealer that lets me kick the tires and take it for a test drive, and I sure as heck don't pay MSRP! I guess I'm just a bad consumer.


 
Hi RealOne & All

Firstly let me apologise if i am repeating what might have already been said..i havnt had time to read all the replies.

I bought a fair amount of my gear over the internet. However before i did purchase ANYTHING i did a couple of months research on each scuba retailer (and manufacturer) that i was thinking about buying from.

In my opionion the most important step i took was to e-mail the relevant manufacturers regarding the online scuba retailers. For example i e-mailed Apeks about http://www.sdswatersports.co.uk and asked Apeks if they supported this shop selling its goods. Apeks said yes they do and i should buy from them with 100% confidence. So i did, and i saved 300 pounds ( English Stirling) on buying them from my local shop. However when i bought them i took them to my local shop and got them serviced to make 110% sure that they were sound. I recieved the Apeks regulators in fine condition although i had to attach the SECOND stage to its hose (octopus TX40) which can be tricky if you dont know what your doing.

Put simply, if you arnt prepared to do the research then DO NOT buy off the web. There are PLENTY of online retailers that trade without the manufacturers permision and as such you dont get a manufacurers warranty with the gear you buy. Make sure that you get a warranty whatever you do, though i suppose that go's without saying.

There is a site (scuba retailer) on the net which actually has a badge supplied by the scuba trade industry which says that the quality of its goods are safe...HOWEVER EVERY manufacturer i e-mailed about this site gave me the same reply DO NOT BUY FROM THIS RETAILER. This was because they sell imported (grey market) gear in which would probably be old stock etc.

You have to draw a line somewhere. I got my cobra from my local shop even though i saw it on a reputable site on the net. My local shop charged me 370 , though i saw it on the net for 340. Nothing wrong with the shop in question because it is one of ONLY TWO (see below) that i ever buy from on the net. The reason i bought it from my local shop is because of the ease at which i can get it serviced etc, and if something gos wrong i can take it down the road to my local shop. I only buy off the net when there is a substantial saving to be had, but there arnt many, not as many as you think, at least not genuine ones.

Hope this helps you a little :)

PS the only two sites which in my opinion have the full backing of all the manufacturers(in England) are:
http://www.simplyscuba.com and
http://www.sdswatersports.co.uk
 
Private to DiverinAk:

My late wife and I actually went to hear your dad and his compatriots in SF in the early 60's! What a kick! I still have our 33.333 records from that era, too.

And now that confessions are rolling: I also play Joan Baez, Ian and Sylvia, and Jesse Fuller for my granddaughter--even an occasional Willie Nelson ballad!

Thanks for the info! My apologies to members of this Board who are bored by this...

Joewr

 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/swift/

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