The State of Diving

[Walter]

I doubt that anybody WANTS to be awkward or unstable in the water. My guess is that the divers in that video have at some point wished they could stop and look at something, instead of having to swim circles around it (at least I did, when I was new).

I completely agree, but the problem with giving them the skills to not be awkward or unstable is the outlook that "vacation divers don't need that level to look at the pretty fishes."

The skills are pretty easy to learn and virtually any motivated, able bodied person and many with disabilities can learn these skills. Some may need to work more than others, but if I can learn them so can just about anyone else.

It seems to me that some instructors seem to think this is hard to learn or hard to teach. It isn't. Maybe they think some divers enjoy struggling while looking at the pretty fishes or they don't deserve to have good skills right out of the block. I had to put in hundreds of dives to develop my skills, why should new divers get a short cut? I had to pay my dues, they should pay theirs. What's wrong with making life easier on new divers?

 

[ScubaSteve]

I think that it is a good idea to show videos including that of a diver with good trim and buoyancy during OW. Without the comparison, the student just assumes they will come out of the class as a fully trained and certified scuba diver. They will not know what they could have had without the comparison. Quite frankly, I think that anybody that tries to reach that level during training will enjoy Scuba so much more than if they left with their arms and legs flailing about.

I can almost relate right now because I have very recently switched from Wetsuit/Poodle Jacket combo to a Drysuit/Wing combo. The first 3 or 4 dives were not enjoyable dives in my opinion, the next couple were better and then on one dive around #8 or #9 I reached a zen like state mid water cloumn. Granted this is a different type of diver training/experience but It was just so much fun and so relaxing at that point. THAT is what Scuba diving is IMO and people have the right to know about it earlier on.

I know for a fact here today that I feel shortchanged in the instruction that I got for my OW certification. But, I knew no better because the fact that this was possible was hidden from me (simply by not showing me).

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Off topic, but not necessarily, I see women wear them all of the time when their hair is long enough to get in the way if left to drift around, but too short to put back in a pony tail. Maybe dude has a luxurious mane that he needs to control.

... or maybe no hair at all.

I wear a Dee-rag when diving tropical because if I don't put something up there, the top of my head gets sunburned ... and it's just too damned hot for a hood ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

It seems to me that some instructors seem to think this is hard to learn or hard to teach. It isn't. Maybe they think some divers enjoy struggling while looking at the pretty fishes or they don't deserve to have good skills right out of the block. I had to put in hundreds of dives to develop my skills, why should new divers get a short cut? I had to pay my dues, they should pay theirs. What's wrong with making life easier on new divers?

... or maybe that's how the instructors were taught, and how they were taught to teach ... and so they believe that's how it should be done.

Quite likely ... were it not for a few mentors showing me alternatives ... that's how I'd be teaching ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Walter]

Good point, but I'm talking about folks who argue against teaching to a higher level, not those who are unaware of the possibilities.

 

[seco divemaster17]

i'm a dive master who helps teach new divers and we dont give c-cards to any one who is not comfortable in the water first and if they need the extra help to get there then we make sure they do, some people are there for the fast cash per say.

 

[ptyx]

Absolutely not! I think novices deserve better treatment from those of us who teach them to dive. We. all too frequently, short change them. No one here is bashing novices, we are trying to give them better. They deserve better.

I completely agree, but the problem with giving them the skills to not be awkward or unstable is the outlook that "vacation divers don't need that level to look at the pretty fishes."

They should be offered the option, but I would argue that if they know what they're getting into there is a legitimate market for 'discover scuba+' instruction. Something to get a taste of the activity, have fun, and eventually follow up later with more training if you decide you like it (and you know it's there).

It's a marketing problem, not really a training problem. Except for forums and threads like this one, the message in all dive magazines is that all certifications are equivalent and the only competition is on duration and price. Which is to be expected from operations competing on price, but I'd like to see some of the others in magazines...

 

[RU4SKUBA]

Walter, you seem all over the place... you on a rant today?

"the problem with giving them the skills to not be awkward or unstable is the outlook that vacation divers don't need that level"

What do others' opinions or "outlooks" have to do with the manner in which you teach your class? Focus on yourself, your weaknesses, and how you can learn from others mistakes and you'll see the world from a healthier perspective.

You seem to be suggesting --sorry if I misunderstood-- that you're shaping your course around low industry standards that you disagree with... but yet you're conforming while also routinely griping about it on scubaboard?

"Good point, but I'm talking about folks who argue against teaching to a higher level."

Nobody is arguing against the instructors teaching to higher standards, though some are questioning whether longer classes and exorbitant tuition is the best solution. I might agree to some higher OW standards, in principle, but its fantasy-land (and agency anti-trust violations) to expect major changes to the introductory scuba course.

And my personal favorite: "I had to put in hundreds of dives to develop my skills, why should new divers get a short cut? I had to pay my dues, they should pay theirs."

So your justification for raising standards, as it sounds to me, is because it took you X long to master, X long it must be for everyone?

For certain, because otherwise your YMCA four-month course wasn't really as effective as you suggest or its just you. Eek! I have a couple relatives from YMCA certifications and I've never seen more poorly educated divers sadly ignorant of almost every contemporary diving principle, so when I hear old-skoolers bragging about the good ole days I sort of have to laugh.

 

[ScubaSteve]

.....the message in all dive magazines is that all certifications are equivalent.....

Does this mean they are sufficient? Are all certifications shortcutting the student? I think that is a big part of the question. And to say that all certifications are equivalent is not correct in any respect. Because every instructor is different, every certification is not equivalent. As is discussed here, some go above and beyond to turn out better divers......some make sure the absolute minimum is met so they can push them out the door. It can be said that on paper, the minimum requirements are equivalent (I am not saying they are), but that is where it stops.

 

[ptyx]

Does this mean they are sufficient? Are all certifications shortcutting the student? I think that is a big part of the question.

Different debate. And although I've seen many divers I personally wouldn't have let go in the water without a DM (or mentor) had I been responsible for them, accident statistics hint that I'm wrong.

And to say that all certifications are equivalent is not correct in any respect. Because every instructor is different, every certification is not equivalent.

The skills of the diver, of course, will depend on the instruction.

But all certifications are equivalent in the sense that most dive operators will accept c-cards from any agency. For the purpose of booking a trip on a boat, it doesn't matter if you got your certification in a box of cereals or if you took an incredibly long, thorough and exacting course - as long as you have an official looking piece of plastic with your name on it.