Training Materials, which is better?

[MXGratefulDiver]

Kingpatzer, I'm half tempted to print out and send you my GUE books -- if you're the kind of person who enjoys criticizing editing, you'd have a field day! For books which are generally well written and packed with information, they're atrociously edited.

One of the biggest distractions to "Dress for Success" when I first read it was the poor grammar and spelling errors. The material and organization were fine, but the poor editing was a real disappointment in a manual by an agency that purports to stand for excellence.

Sadly, most of the comments I've read here are consistent with the agency materials I've read. When I was coming up through the ranks of NAUI, I once wrote a letter to to NAUI's Director of Training offering to edit the material, and pointing out some of the errors I found in several of the manuals. I never heard back from him ... I later was told that he was the one who had edited them.

Flip side, I have found some excellent resources from various agencies ... but it comes in dribs and drabs, and depends on what subject you're trying to cover. IANTD did a reasonable job with recreational trimix, and when I was looking for materials for a deep diver specialty, they were the only agency that even TRIED to cover gas management. NAUI's Nitrox and Master Diver manuals are pretty good. Some of the Jeppeson manuals we used for my YMCA classes cover various topics pretty well, although in some cases the info (and the graphics) are clearly dated.

But for the most part I just write my own ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Those who are capable of getting by in a straight lecture, here-are-the-facts format often feel superior to people who cannot succeed in that fashion, and they often see attempts to use quality educational technique as "dumbing down." The psychological effect is the belief that if I am working harder than someone else and if others cannot get it, then I must be learning more. That is not true. It is actually possible to learn more with less effort when the material is properly presented, and that means better education for everyone. Making it easier to learn something does not mean that something is not being learned.

John, first off that was an outstanding post. As someone who's spent the last 34 years writing technical manuals for a living I found myself shaking my head in agreement on virtually all of it.

With respect to scuba instruction, I've two issues with the typical approach. One is that where you dive has a direct impact on what needs to be emphasized in your training, and the other is that how you learn has a direct impact on how it needs to be presented. Standardized training materials don't address these two factors because, really, they're not designed to. Lowest common denominator training doesn't fall short because of what it contains, but rather because of what it leaves out. The best instructors will supplement their materials with handouts, slide shows, video, or demonstrations that emphasize points that the standard materials have either dumbed down or left out. They do this to accommodate local needs or individual learning styles.

In other words, dumbing down the material may ... in fact ... mean that the subject is not being learned ... because it failed to maintain and hold the student's interest or adequately convey why the subject is worth the effort of learning. That, really, is the limitation of the "read the manual and submit a knowledge review" approach to training ... regurgitating something isn't the same as learning it. And while that approach may be perfectly adequate for some, it is completely inadequate for others ... and a knowledge review will not tell you which is which.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[ScubaFeenD]

When I initially posed this question I was simply trying to get a gauge on quality of materials that each agency offered. I have had more education that I care to think about and I know I am the kind of person that likes to have a reference in addition to having excellent in person instruction. I also think that I need a lot less lecture If I can teach myself--I for once think focus on actual skills should be a certification agencies primary goal not theory, which can be read and understood.

Numerous responses to my initial post involved explaining that the instructor makes or breaks a class. I believe that i the absolute truth. However, how can anyone possibly guarantee that they are getting a great education. Recommendations flow on SB and everywhere else that say, speak with your instructor or look for experience--what agency you go with doesn't matter. I wish someone would explain to me how I was supposed to find the most qualified instructor around when I was 17. The concept that I should have shopped around in Northern NJ without the internet to find the most concerned, experienced, and caring instructor is preposterous! That, inherently, is why agency expectations, materialized through educational materials, is such a critical discussion. Sure, NAUI vs PADI vs SDI is doesn't mean much, but you can see an agencies philosophy in the way they write their textbooks, in the way they build their certification requirements, and the expectations for minimum certification. At some point it is impossible to find the "best instructor" for you--often times by the time you know, its too late for it to make a difference until your next class.

I have both PADI and NAUI books for the basic courses, and while I like PADI for the comprehensiveness (def cover topics that they dont in NAUI), NAUI feels much more appropriate for the maturity level that should be required for someone leaving the surface where air is plentiful. Not that I dont think everyone should be certified, I am just a little disappointed that I can't grab any certified individual as a buddy--I just can't trust that everyone has the same viewpoints and mature approach to the serious side of diving.

I have read all GUE books, and despite editing issues, they are far more in-depth and focus a great deal on physics and skills, which should hint at the philosophy of the agency. I am a little saddened by their lack of fully explaining how to do everything (i like NAUIs treatment of EANx and I am not sure I would have really gotten what I would need out of GUEs books), but overall I agree with TSandM regarding their open water manual winning "hands-down." I mean, they even cover PFOs, which i haven't been able to find mentioned in any of my NAUI or PADI manuals. GUE's comprehensiveness is refreshing to see though; sadly I had never heard about buoyancy and trim until I read the book. Why is that? Were my instructors bad? Perhaps I would have been better served by a book that would have stressed it, so I would know to ask.

I have yet to see any TDI or IANTD manuals, but I am interested. Also, I just recently learned about PASI, and I would be interested in learning more about that as well.

I know I might get flak for this post, but I really dont care about the agency. They are just letters. I want to know where I go wont hold punches. I want to learn everything, learn how to execute every skill as well as possible, learn how to help my fellow divers in any contingency, learn just as much about what my limits are as I do about what I can do, and most of all know that everyone was certified that way so that the only thing holding me back from diving with anyone as a buddy are simple personality conflicts.

 

[Mike Boswell]

Hey everyone,

My question is this: Which certification agency has the best training materials? Im not talking about flash or fancy pictures and nice decals. No, instead I am talking about the meat of training material. If you have the ability to compare I am interested in which agency you all think can get the message across best and most completely.

I know that the real important part of training is the instructor, but I think that the required training materials agencies use can indicate a lot, and I am interested who does it best as a more objective way to measure. Also, Im interested in all levels here from lower level open water to technical diving (even though this isn't a technical forum).

Perhaps this isnt the best place to post this question, but I figure advanced divers out there would have the most experience with this issue. I look forward to your responses!

Which agency has the best materials? For whom?

For the 15 year old kid taking a scuba class in a quarry?
For the liberal-arts college students taking a OW cert class on Bonaire?
For the young high school grad wanting a scuba career?
For the marine scientist or filmographer?
For a guy who just wants to catch lobsters?
For the retired cruise ship passenger wanting a closer look at the reef?
For the dive shops and professionals using the materials?

If your answer is "All of the above", plus the tech/wreck/cave/commercial/public safety etc. etc. crowds, then perhaps you may begin to glimpse the issues facing the training agencies.

In my forty years as an engineer, the most important thing I have learned is this: Spend your time working on questions, not on answers. A right question contains within it the right answer. But almost all questions are wrong, and the response to a wrong question is never a right answer.

 

[rstofer]

I know I might get flak for this post, but I really dont care about the agency. They are just letters. I want to know where I go wont hold punches. I want to learn everything, learn how to execute every skill as well as possible, learn how to help my fellow divers in any contingency, learn just as much about what my limits are as I do about what I can do, and most of all know that everyone was certified that way so that the only thing holding me back from diving with anyone as a buddy are simple personality conflicts.

When I started diving, I only wanted to dive with people who had much more experience. They were my backup plan. Unfortunately, they didn't want to dive with me! Most were already buddied-up and the others were marine biologists working solo.

Realizing this (and not resenting it), I just kept taking classes. There was no way that OW I was the end-all of training. It was just an introduction. So I stumbled through OW II, Advaned OW and Rescue in short order. Upon completing Rescue, I thought I had a handle on things - until I came back to California. Then the process started over. I had never worn a wetsuit, had no concept that buoyancy would change and generally felt like a dufus. I knew essentially nothing!

Your selection of buddy candidates is going to leave you high and dry. Not everyone wants to achieve the level of performance you are setting for yourself. Most divers never progress beyond OW. Very few progress through AOW and Rescue. Even fewer progress into tech and, ultimately, cave diving.

To achieve the level of performance you desire, you will definitely want to go with one of the more technical diving agencies. GUE is certainly one possibility. But I would be deeply concerned about the agency and their training if they don't even bother to proofread their training material. I would be even more skeptical of instructor generated material simply because it isn't peer reviewed.

It is often said that the instructor makes the course. Well, sure, as long as they present peer reviewed material. Otherwise, it's 'trust me!' diving and I'm not a trusting person. There are no issues with teaching physical skills beyond the books (eg finning techniques) but I would get very nervous if the topics became technical. I want to see it written down in a published book.

Richard

 

[ScubaFeenD]

Which agency has the best materials? For whom?

For the 15 year old kid taking a scuba class in a quarry?
For the liberal-arts college students taking a OW cert class on Bonaire?
For the young high school grad wanting a scuba career?
For the marine scientist or filmographer?
For a guy who just wants to catch lobsters?
For the retired cruise ship passenger wanting a closer look at the reef?
For the dive shops and professionals using the materials?

If your answer is "All of the above", plus the tech/wreck/cave/commercial/public safety etc. etc. crowds, then perhaps you may begin to glimpse the issues facing the training agencies.

In my forty years as an engineer, the most important thing I have learned is this: Spend your time working on questions, not on answers. A right question contains within it the right answer. But almost all questions are wrong, and the response to a wrong question is never a right answer.

While i understand that it might seem that I am erring by asking this question, I think you are just missing what I am going for. I am going for what agency has the best material based on conveying the information and in an unfiltered/undiluted form. Should a 15 year old be taught something different than someone going to bonaire or diving in colder deeper water? Yes, of course they should, but that should be taken care of by more advanced certifications and not by omitting information in the original certification. Would you feel comfortable giving someone the false confidence to dive even if they weren't given all the information and couldn't really accomplish the necessary tasks to do the job. Sure OW divers dont need to know technical diving, but I believe that is why there are levels of certification.

Perhaps there needs to be a restructuring of the courses based on what you list above, where the interests of people can be pursued. I dont think that is true, though. I think everyone should be expected to perform based on a set of skills that are necessary, and information, whether presented very easily or in a more complicated way shouldn't be distilled to make the barriers of entry lower. Diving is one of the most amazing activities on earth (clearly my opinion), and is more fun than I could possibly describe to someone in words. However, it is not without significant dangers, and lack of proper preparation, education, and skill experience gives false confidence and results in terrible outcomes.

That all being said, maybe PADI and NAUI are not different. MAybe the materials are all fine. I didn't mean for this to get into a philosophical debate bout which agency is better. Frankly, none of that is helpful. As a bibliophile AND a diver I just was curious what people, in their experience, think about different training materials.

I have read some great comments on the board here, and now I have far more information on resources than I did before. I feel like my question has at least been basally answered.

 

[Akimbo]

I hope this is not hijacking your thread, but this seems like a good place to bring this up. Has anyone produced a quality DVD that deals with diving physics and physiology? They can be particularly intimidating and potentially boring subjects that could be made more interesting and comprehendible with a well produced video.

Expensive resources like decompression chambers, staged underwater sets, props, and graphic arts could be amortized over a larger student base, and potentially certifying agencies. It has the potential to reduce expensive classroom time. The replay and rewind buttons allows a new diver to review this important information on their own schedule without peer pressure and time constraints of a classroom.

I am not suggesting this as a replacement to classroom time, but only as a homework or class prep tool. A video can take the time to demonstrate many the different ways that a simple subject like buoyancy affects divers. There is no replacement for in-water time, but a much greater comprehension of diving physics and physiology helps new divers concentrate on and appreciate experiences in their new environment with less distraction and stress.

 

[ScubaFeenD]

Thanks for commenting on this!

I for one love the use of video for learning. When I first got certified I got the PADI OW CD-ROMs and they were great. hey covered a lot of redundant material that was also in the book, but some things are easier explained with a video. I think, as a result of watching the videos prior to going to class and in-water sessions, that my skills were much better. As a result, I was able to spend more time focussing on getting comfortable with the skills instead of figuring out what the instructor had in mind. I think the video material is one are where PADI really excels; I dont think NAUIs videos are quite at clear.

 

[rstofer]

While i understand that it might seem that I am erring by asking this question, I think you are just missing what I am going for. I am going for what agency has the best material based on conveying the information and in an unfiltered/undiluted form. Should a 15 year old be taught something different than someone going to bonaire or diving in colder deeper water? Yes, of course they should, but that should be taken care of by more advanced certifications and not by omitting information in the original certification. Would you feel comfortable giving someone the false confidence to dive even if they weren't given all the information and couldn't really accomplish the necessary tasks to do the job. Sure OW divers dont need to know technical diving, but I believe that is why there are levels of certification.

Now we're getting back to the philosophy of diver training. How much is enough for OW? How many hours, how many dives, what skills, and so on. This topic is hotly debated every single week and if there isn't a current thread, someone will create one just to get it started - again. "My agency is better than yours!" over and over. In the end it always results in PADI bashing even though PADI trains more divers than all the other agencies COMBINED.

PADI OW doesn't teach much about rescue although it does include the 'tow' component of 'tow and blow'. It doesn't cover bringing an unconscious diver to the surface either. Apparently, some instructors and some agencies do include this in OW. PADI leaves Rescue until after AOW while NAUI teaches it after OW. Different philosophies...

The basic differences: the 24 hour (give or take) PADI/NAUI/SSI program versus the 50 hour SEI (was YMCA) program versus the original 100 hour LA County program (still used for university research divers). Of course the diver from a 100 hour program is better prepared! These hours are for comparison, they are not hard and fast numbers. In the university program the students are far above average, homework can be unlimited and the students are highly motivated. It's a job (sort of), not a hobby!

Richard

 

[Scott L]

Hey everyone,

My question is this: Which certification agency has the best training materials? Im not talking about flash or fancy pictures and nice decals. No, instead I am talking about the meat of training material. If you have the ability to compare I am interested in which agency you all think can get the message across best and most completely.

I know that the real important part of training is the instructor, but I think that the required training materials agencies use can indicate a lot, and I am interested who does it best as a more objective way to measure. Also, Im interested in all levels here from lower level open water to technical diving (even though this isn't a technical forum).

Perhaps this isnt the best place to post this question, but I figure advanced divers out there would have the most experience with this issue. I look forward to your responses!

Bar none IMO the best training material ever produced was just accomplished by GUE with their - Beginning With the End in Mind - The Fundamentals of Recreational Diving, By Jesper Berglund. The manual is 503 pages and costs $30.00 (Acrobat PDF download). Fantastic!

Beginning With the End in Mind - the Fundamentals of Recreational Diving - PDF | Global Underwater Explorers