Treat every dive like a tech dive

[doctormike]

A huge percentage of technical training and practices is based on understanding and mastery of the added equipment.

At least that's my take.

Perhaps I jumped to conclusions, but remember our OP is the same self proclaimed newbie that's pondering using doubles from the start due to their "added" safety.

Tobin

Yeah, I think that this comes down to semantics - I just liked the idea of promoting the kind of thoughtfulness and planning that you learn in tech training for divers of all levels.

Then again, I hadn't read his other thread about the doubles...

Stuart, is that really you?

---------- Post added December 2nd, 2015 at 09:16 PM ----------

How about instead of promoting a "tech diving" mindset, we promote a "proper dive planning" mindset for recreational dives.

Yeah, semantics...

 

[boulderjohn]

Everything you stated should be done at any level of diving. Sorry, but I'm not seeing the difference. One of the biggest killers in technical diving is breathing the wrong gas. Which goes back to what is technical diving? Mostly gas planning and execution. Just look at what the technical agencies offer for courses. Setting cave and wreck diving aside, which would mostly entail gear, technique and gas management, the majority of your time spent on technical training is about gas.

Wow! I didn't know that. But seriously, this is not remotely true. Not even close.

Give me one really good example of a problem that a well trained rec diver could encounter during a basic open water dive that only a tec diver would know how to handle due to a technical course?

This is true. A student who finishes the pool session of an OW course has learned how to deal with any reasonably possible problem encountered in recreational diving.

I'll also add that while a tec diver may have a certification stating such, that doesn't mean they're a better diver than an experienced rec diver. The common consensus is experience reins supreme. Why, because the guy who has 5,000 dives has likely experienced and solved many problems during his diving career where it's possible to have a "certified" tec diver with a lot fewer dives that hasn't. ...

I guess my point is, tec or rec the guy who has more experience is likely the safer diver or can get himself out of a jam. So what do we do? Dive more of course.

Now you are getting into the absurd.

Technical divers train and train and train for the dives they do because they are doing different dives with different equipment than recreational divers. The idea that doing 5,000 shallow reef dives makes you a better diver is silly because you are doing different things requiring different skills. It is like saying that someone who has been driving in San Diego for 50 years will be better able to find his way around Cincinnati than a Cincinnati cab driver who has only been doing it for 5 years. For example, take the experience of Cozumel dive shop owner Opal Cohen and her best divemaster, who had thousands of dives each on the reefs of Cozumel. They decided to go to a different zip code on a dive--down to 300 feet. that kind of depth is done safely and routinely by tech divers with only a couple hundred dives. You might ask them how it turned out, but Opal died, and her divemaster is no longer active, being paralyzed for life.

The common consensus is experience reins supreme.

That is the common consensus of the people who do not have much training and don't want to admit that they missed anything. It is really amazing how people who have not experienced something believe they have such powerful imaginations that they know what it is like to have the training they don't have and have likely never seen.

 

[CuzzA]

IANTD World Headquarters - Technical Programs

Please read each technical programs course "purpose". This pretty much backs up my point about gas.

Doing a dive outside your training is not a good example and I think you completely missed my point. So I'll say it in different words. A diver who has 5,000 dives to recreational depths has likely experienced gear failures, environmental challenges, buddy issues, etc. These experiences make him a better diver because he has faced real life challenges. Compare that to someone with 200 dives, half of which are technical and has not experienced these challenges.

Now going back to the straight technical courses I linked above, how would those courses benefit a basic open water recreational dive? A better question would be, of the two example divers I mentioned, who would you choose to be your dive buddy on a basic open water recreational dive?

 

[NAM001]

There are so many things I do not do when dong a rec dive. The flip side there are many things I do that would probably be considered tech. like depth and trim control. finning methods. I pick and choose the skills I guess, but never go full hog. " let the punishment fit the crime"

 

[CuzzA]

Let me clarify, I'm not saying a recreational diver with 5,000 dives is a better diver than a technical diver with 5,000 dives. Clearly the technical divers training and dives are much more rigorous and mentally taxing. Especially when you add a specialty like caves.

My point was simply the approach to diving should be the same for every dive. Well thought out! I don't just go drive my boat out to the Gulf, anchor up, slap a tank on and drop in. No, I consider my destination and how that correlates to my MOD, gas plan, exposure protection, environmental conditions, gear and activity. Am I shooting fish, working or just exploring? If I'm shooting fish I'm considering the probability of being a solo diver and the need for my redundant air source.

I am not a technical diver, I'm working my way up... Err... Down. Deep Diver and Advanced Recreational Trimix upcoming, but regardless my approach will be the same. Well thought out! Is that type of thinking only for "technical" divers? I don't think so.

 

[uncfnp]

"Treat every dive like a tech dive"


This is a great sounding slogan but in the real world what exactly are you saying? If every dive is treated as a tech dive then every diver should be a tech diver. It sounds good but has no real meaning. Yes. Ideally this would/could be true. But like everything else in life, not all divers are equal. Some are type A and put it all into the sport and some just want to dive in reasonable safety, see the pretty fishes and follow the guide. And this is fine, as long as those divers know their limits and stay within them.

 

[TMHeimer]

A lot of good points on both sides of this discussion. There are always risks. Assess every dive and take what you need. Be very conservative--don't put yourself anywhere close to entanglement (especially if solo, of course)--I know something very odd may happen like a hugely unexpected current pulling you into thick kelp or something. But that goes to knowing your dive site. If it's a new site, try to get a local orientation--and whether you do or not, be way more careful than one you've dived dozens of time. My favourite is more like "Treat every dive like it's your first"--this is obviously difficult after you've got quite a few dives under your belt. One thing not mentioned (here....) is that divers with OW cert. only do not have the specific Rescue skills taught in Rescue. They are not trained in dealing with a panicked buddy. And that can obviously happen, though it is said that two new OW divers can buddy up and happily dive to 60' in conditions at least as good as their training. This may be more worth thinking about that thinking tech. to dive rec.

 

[TONY CHANEY]

IANTD World Headquarters - Technical Programs

Please read each technical programs course "purpose". This pretty much backs up my point about gas.

Doing a dive outside your training is not a good example and I think you completely missed my point. So I'll say it in different words. A diver who has 5,000 dives to recreational depths has likely experienced gear failures, environmental challenges, buddy issues, etc. These experiences make him a better diver because he has faced real life challenges. Compare that to someone with 200 dives, half of which are technical and has not experienced these challenges.

Joking right? The only way that you get 5000 dives at rec. depths (which is a joke BTW because there really is no such of a thing as rec depth) is you learned from mistakes and God let you off easy and let you dive another day. There are hundreds of divers that were never given a second chance. It is like aviation, you can take a class and gain knowledge from others mistakes or just do what you want and hope to learn from your mistakes and make it to 5000 flight hours. Same for driving. Why not just give your child the keys to your car and hopefully after 5000 drives they might have gained enough experience to not have killed them self or others. Training is there for a reason and your post makes no sense what so ever.

 

[CuzzA]

Joking right? The only way that you get 5000 dives at rec. depths (which is a joke BTW because there really is no such of a thing as rec depth) is you learned from mistakes and God let you off easy and let you dive another day. There are hundreds that were never given a second chance. It is like aviation, you can take a class and gain knowledge from others mistakes or just do what you want and hope to learn from your mistakes and make it to 5000 dives. Same for driving. Why not just give your child the keys to your car and hopefully after 5000 drives they might have gained enough experience to not have killed them self or others. Training is there for a reason and your post makes no sense what so ever.

Let's try to make sense of your post. We'll go with the car analogy. I'll ask questions and let you answer. But first, no where did I ever say, "just do what you want and hope to learn from your mistakes". What I said was the guy with experience, for example, may have experienced a wing failure, knew what to do and did it, and now has more experience than someone who has never experienced it in real life not under the supervision and guidance of an instructor. That's just one example.

Now back to cars... Each question can be correlated back to this discussion about general diving and applying tech to rec.

Is a 17 year old who's been driving for a year a better driver than a 30 year old who's been driving for 14 years?

Is a NASCAR driver safer than that same 30 year old when driving around in a suburban neighborhood?

Are speed limits not real?

Do people drive and survive to old age (still one of the most dangerous activities humans do) and only get to old age because God let them off easy? Or was it because over time they became more experienced and developed defensive driving techniques?

Here's a good one. Who's more familiar with the mechanics of a car, the 17 year old or the 30 year old?

 

[chillyinCanada]

Good grief. I've been around too long.

Thanks damselfish, storker, dumpster diver, unfcp . . .