Tulum - what training should I get?

[MXGratefulDiver]

I think it's difficult to generalize. Some of the cenotes do have direct access to the surface ... Pet Cemetery does for a major portion of the cavern. Others ... Gran Cenote ... are pretty extensive, but are also pretty close to the light zone during most of the tour. Heck, I've seen swimmers and snorkelers back in there farther than I would consider sane ... but I haven't heard of any recent drownings.

I do know, however, that not all guides follow the rules ... before I became cave certified I was on a guided cenote tour in Car Wash and watched as a guide exited the cave with four divers ... all in single AL80's and only two of whom even had a (very inadequate) light! Luckily that part of the cave isn't easily silted, because the four of them were bicycling something awful, and from all the arm-waving it was pretty obvious that their buoyancy control left a great deal to be desired. Even if he'd only taken them back in there 20 feet they clearly had no business in there ... and I don't even want to contemplate the potential for one or more of them deciding that since they'd been that far it would be OK to try just a little bit farther next time ... :shocked2:

It's too easy to talk in absolutes ... but it doesn't convey the reality. These tours can be quite safe if conducted by the rules, and if done in the appropriate cenotes (not all are alike when it comes to risk mitigation). The problem is that the untrained diver is unlikely to know when the guide they've chosen decides to do something that stretches the rules, or increases the risks to his clients just a bit beyond prudent. How do you know the guide's even qualified to lead you in there? Think about those people who died in Italy a couple years ago ... dive ops in that area take people in there every day, and that guide wasn't even trained for overhead diving. As a result he allowed his clients into an area that a properly trained guide would have known to be an unacceptable risk ... and it cost most of them their lives.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[ucfdiver]

I would bet cavern tours have a safety record on par with most anywhere else that welcomes a ton of vacation only divers. Look at mini lobster season in FL, and the fatalities we always have.

 

[TSandM]

Every time this topic comes up, a lot of people who have never visited Mexico rant about how nobody should ever go into an overhead environment without cave training. I am a trained cave diver, and I am pretty safety-conscious (ask anybody who has dived with me). But I think the cenote tours are fine, if a few conditions are met.

First, I think the diver should have enough experience in the water to know how he or she reacts to problems. If your mask floods, do you manage it without thinking about it, or is it a major stressor? If you're still at the "I have to sit on the bottom to deal with it" stage of diving, you are not ready for the cenotes. If you tend toward the anxious, fluttery end of the spectrum, you aren't ready for the cenotes. If you have enough diving experience to manage typical issues with aplomb (and while in the water column) you are ready for the tours.

Second, the client should be aware of the APSA rules, and ask if the dive operator follows them. They include the guide being Full Cave and at least a divemaster, diving in full cave gear. The clients must all have their own lights. A briefing about cave geology, and about proper diving technique in the overhead, must be given before the dives. And the dive is NEVER to leave the line, nor to enter the cave zone. I don't believe APSA exists any more, but they used to give a course to train the guides. However, you can inquire about whether the dive op follows those guidelines, and you can evaluate what you are seeing as your cenote day progresses.

Third, the diver should NEVER cede responsibility for the dive to the guide. The diver is responsible for monitoring his own gas, and for following the gold line. Cavern lines rarely have intersections (the exception, Taj Maha, has been revised). People may tie off white line to the gold line, but the tour follows the gold line. The client should always be aware of the line, and should NOT follow a guide off it.

These dives proceed, day after day, with a surprising safety record, especially in view of the fact that some of the operators don't bother with the rules I quoted above. To my knowledge, the only fatalities in cavern tours have involved tours that left the cavern line. Honestly, for most of them, if the guide dropped dead halfway through the dive, a calm and rational open water diver could safely extricate himself. (That is NOT at all true for many dives into the cave zone, however!)

To the OP: These are fantastic, magical dives, and you should definitely do them in the future. Get some training on solid buoyancy control, horizontal trim and non-silting propulsion techniques, and you will have a better time and honor the caves better.

 

[karstdvr]

Every time this topic comes up, a lot of people who have never visited Mexico rant about how nobody should ever go into an overhead environment without cave training. I am a trained cave diver, and I am pretty safety-conscious (ask anybody who has dived with me). But I think the cenote tours are fine, if a few conditions are met.

First, I think the diver should have enough experience in the water to know how he or she reacts to problems. If your mask floods, do you manage it without thinking about it, or is it a major stressor? If you're still at the "I have to sit on the bottom to deal with it" stage of diving, you are not ready for the cenotes. If you tend toward the anxious, fluttery end of the spectrum, you aren't ready for the cenotes. If you have enough diving experience to manage typical issues with aplomb (and while in the water column) you are ready for the tours.

Second, the client should be aware of the APSA rules, and ask if the dive operator follows them. They include the guide being Full Cave and at least a divemaster, diving in full cave gear. The clients must all have their own lights. A briefing about cave geology, and about proper diving technique in the overhead, must be given before the dives. And the dive is NEVER to leave the line, nor to enter the cave zone. I don't believe APSA exists any more, but they used to give a course to train the guides. However, you can inquire about whether the dive op follows those guidelines, and you can evaluate what you are seeing as your cenote day progresses.

Third, the diver should NEVER cede responsibility for the dive to the guide. The diver is responsible for monitoring his own gas, and for following the gold line. Cavern lines rarely have intersections (the exception, Taj Maha, has been revised). People may tie off white line to the gold line, but the tour follows the gold line. The client should always be aware of the line, and should NOT follow a guide off it.

These dives proceed, day after day, with a surprising safety record, especially in view of the fact that some of the operators don't bother with the rules I quoted above. To my knowledge, the only fatalities in cavern tours have involved tours that left the cavern line. Honestly, for most of them, if the guide dropped dead halfway through the dive, a calm and rational open water diver could safely extricate himself. (That is NOT at all true for many dives into the cave zone, however!)

To the OP: These are fantastic, magical dives, and you should definitely do them in the future. Get some training on solid buoyancy control, horizontal trim and non-silting propulsion techniques, and you will have a better time and honor the caves better.

I have to say your post really surprises me,considering I think you are a GUE supporter,and knowing JJ,he would seriously frown on this activity.

I think Mt Everest is a perfect parallel. There are people every year with marginal climbing experience,who every year feel they are ready to try this climb because they are goal driven,not realisitic. They find an experienced guide to take them,and as long as everything goes well,then the trip is a success. But, with all things Murphy is present,and as proven by the number of dead bodies that litter the path,it appears that having the best guide can't save you from mother nature's wrath. So the guide is not sure of the quality of the people he is taking,but willing to take their money. The person being guided gets a boost of confidence by having an experienced guide,but since they are in completely foreign surroundings,and out of their experience level,self-rescue has minimal success.

Anytime you enter the overhead,even a seasoned cave diver entering the Peacock cavern,you have placed yourself at risk. The veteran cave diver,and even the newly trained cavern diver have a fighting chance of survival just for the sake they have training. Any open water diver, even an OWSI,their chance or survival goes down significantly because they lack the proper training and skill set. That being said,why would you want to take OW divers into an overhead environment? Money! The pity is accidents have happened there,but the activity continues because it is such a money making enterprise. The comment,"They include the guide being Full Cave and at least a divemaster, diving in full cave gear."-how will this save someone in panic mode,silt out, etc, kind of like have that experienced guide/climber on Mt Everest,they have the proper training and equipment for self rescue.

As a trained cave diver that fully supports cave safety,not only for my personal safety,but helping maintain site access, I can't ethically ever condone this activity,because if I did I would be guilty of hypocrisy. One thing I will never forget is the site of an OW diver at Blue Grotto that was in full panic mode,even with perfect viz. He was pounding his head into the ceiling with no regulator in his mouth trying to find a way out. Someone closer helped him,and at the surface he was totally freaked out in a panic.

 

[Dirty-Dog]

So karstdvr... Can you please point me to the bodies "littering" the cenotes?
Your grim fantasy doesn't really have any connection with the realities of these dives.


Sent from an old fashioned 300 baud acoustic modem by whistling into the handset. Really.

 

[TSandM]

kartsdvr, have you been to Mexico? Have you seen where the cenote tours are conducted? You are at far more risk inside the Cathedrals in Lanai than you are on the cavern tour of Cenote Eden, where you are basically swimming under a shelf, with both visual reference and easy access to open water at all times. Unlike Florida, these places are extremely shallow, allowing the diver a LOT of gas/time to get to the light. They don't have Florida clay sediments. Most of the cenote tour sites have no silt at all to speak of, and what they have is coarse calcite sand, difficult to kick up and quick to settle. The areas where the tour folk swim are wide open. (The few sites where these things are not true are not generally discussed, and are held back by the guides for the divers who have clearly shown greater capacity.).
'
Recreational divers routinely dive to 130 feet of depth. I doubt there is anyplace on the typical tourist tour of the cenotes where you are 130 feet from air. Viz is superb and difficult to decrease. Routes are marked with well-installed, thick gold line. THOUSANDS of divers a year do these tours.

I actually think it's a nice way for people to get a taste for what the spaces are like, and decide if they want further training. However, there are caveats . . . low budget operations that have one guide for six or more divers, don't provide lights, and guides who, for the hope of an extra tip, will take divers where they shouldn't go. Well established operations (many of which are frequently recommended on this board) do not do these things, and I think the tours are actually safer than some of the places I have dived in open water (for example, high current sites on big walls, with up and down currents).

 

[Dirty-Dog]

I have to say your post really surprises me,considering I think you are a GUE supporter,and knowing JJ,he would seriously frown on this activity.

I think Mt Everest is a perfect parallel. There are people every year with marginal climbing experience,who every year feel they are ready to try this climb because they are goal driven,not realisitic. They find an experienced guide to take them,and as long as everything goes well,then the trip is a success. But, with all things Murphy is present,and as proven by the number of dead bodies that litter the path,it appears that having the best guide can't save you from mother nature's wrath. So the guide is not sure of the quality of the people he is taking,but willing to take their money. The person being guided gets a boost of confidence by having an experienced guide,but since they are in completely foreign surroundings,and out of their experience level,self-rescue has minimal success.

Anytime you enter the overhead,even a seasoned cave diver entering the Peacock cavern,you have placed yourself at risk. The veteran cave diver,and even the newly trained cavern diver have a fighting chance of survival just for the sake they have training. Any open water diver, even an OWSI,their chance or survival goes down significantly because they lack the proper training and skill set. That being said,why would you want to take OW divers into an overhead environment? Money! The pity is accidents have happened there,but the activity continues because it is such a money making enterprise. The comment,"They include the guide being Full Cave and at least a divemaster, diving in full cave gear."-how will this save someone in panic mode,silt out, etc, kind of like have that experienced guide/climber on Mt Everest,they have the proper training and equipment for self rescue.

As a trained cave diver that fully supports cave safety,not only for my personal safety,but helping maintain site access, I can't ethically ever condone this activity,because if I did I would be guilty of hypocrisy. One thing I will never forget is the site of an OW diver at Blue Grotto that was in full panic mode,even with perfect viz. He was pounding his head into the ceiling with no regulator in his mouth trying to find a way out. Someone closer helped him,and at the surface he was totally freaked out in a panic.

Your "parallel" is completely inaccurate. A more accurate comparison would be one in which people have a picnic on the lower slopes of the mountain. Within sight of the parking lot. With a Sherpa along.

 

[ucfdiver]

I have to say your post really surprises me,considering I think you are a GUE supporter,and knowing JJ,he would seriously frown on this activity.

If Jarrod cared that much, I bet he'd be yanking instructor cards from the zero gravity guys who do cenote tours and teach GUE cave classes.

So the guide is not sure of the quality of the people he is taking,but willing to take their money. The person being guided gets a boost of confidence by having an experienced guide

This same logic could be applied to most cave instructors who don't require an intro to tech or fundies card before starting cave training.

 

[Scubagolf]

 

[karstdvr]

So karstdvr... Can you please point me to the bodies "littering" the cenotes?
Your grim fantasy doesn't really have any connection with the realities of these dives.


.

You took what I said out of context. What I do stand by is there has been fatalities due to this activity. Whether it was a special certified organized dive group that blessed this activity,or unscupulous individuals,I am unwilling to accept a single fatality because it is unnecessary. Are you telling me that one or two fatalities for lets say several thousand dives conducted is an acceptable number?

---------- Post added July 18th, 2014 at 05:50 AM ----------

kartsdvr, have you been to Mexico? Have you seen where the cenote tours are conducted? You are at far more risk inside the Cathedrals in Lanai than you are on the cavern tour of Cenote Eden, where you are basically swimming under a shelf, with both visual reference and easy access to open water at all times. Unlike Florida, these places are extremely shallow, allowing the diver a LOT of gas/time to get to the light. They don't have Florida clay sediments. Most of the cenote tour sites have no silt at all to speak of, and what they have is coarse calcite sand, difficult to kick up and quick to settle. The areas where the tour folk swim are wide open. (The few sites where these things are not true are not generally discussed, and are held back by the guides for the divers who have clearly shown greater capacity.).
'
.

Yes I have been to Mexico many times,and have seen the tours you are describing. I do agree with what you are saying about the sediment,depth etc. My main point is as trained cave divers we tell people that the overhead is dangerous,get training,don't risk you life,but this is okay. There are those that feel it is unacceptable for the activities that occur at Ginnie and Vortex to name a few,and wonder why every few years there is fatality related to overhead diving. Cavern diving training is so readily available,and it is almost impossible to find an OW agency that doesn't teach it.

---------- Post added July 18th, 2014 at 05:57 AM ----------

If Jarrod cared that much, I bet he'd be yanking instructor cards from the zero gravity guys who do cenote tours and teach GUE cave classes.


This same logic could be applied to most cave instructors who don't require an intro to tech or fundies card before starting cave training.

Does Jarrod know? If a GUE oriented shop knows and supports this then I have lost a lot of faith in an organization that has high standards. Does GUE support untrained divers entering the overhead? Is GUE okay with an occasional fatality or incident that goes with an activity like this,just chalk it up to the cost of doing business?

As far as the logic of cave instructors not requiring intro/fundamentals,this is non sequitor,and deserves another thread.

---------- Post added July 18th, 2014 at 06:05 AM ----------

Your "parallel" is completely inaccurate. A more accurate comparison would be one in which people have a picnic on the lower slopes of the mountain. Within sight of the parking lot. With a Sherpa along.

You are right my parallel is not perfect,but close. I know from your previous comments that you've done these dives and support this activity. It looks innocent,and I take it your not cave trained,otherwise you would see that this smacks of everything we are trained. But more than training,all cave divers support safety,and understand that hazards. The fatality that occured Xmas day at Eagles Nest where a father and son,was completely preventable. We cringe at these things because the sport has evolved from the dark ages of the 70s,with proper gear and training,but for some reason we keep regressing.

---------- Post added July 18th, 2014 at 06:27 AM ----------

This is a cave diving subforum,which I know means it is visited by noncave divers,but to the cave divers on here,do you support safe cave diving? Do you support the items on the CDS grim reaper sign and NACD stop sign,and feel it is not safe for nontrained divers to enter the overhead? Can you answer these questions yes or no,because really there is no "but" or grey area.