Tulum - what training should I get?

[TSandM]

I don't know if Jarrod knows everything the ZG guys do. But they do not do cavern tours often, and they do not do them except for people who have passed Fundamentals. At that point, of course, you have the buoyancy, trim, and non-silting propulsion thing pretty much down.

karstdvr, I know of no fatality on one of these tours that wasn't related to a gross breach of the basic rules. To say that something is unsafe because people who break the rules might get hurt is a little unrealistic -- the same thing could be said of simple open water diving. People die from doing 200 foot bounce dives on single tanks; does that make open water diving unacceptably dangerous?

The question of whether doing the tours diminishes the diver's respect for the dangers of the overhead environment is a good one. A good guide will prevent that, I think, in the briefing and debrief.

 

[syntaxerrorsix]

Best practice is to stay within the limits of your training. If there is any overhead and you aren't trained don't do that dive. We have standards for a reason. You can choose to follow them or come up with whatever reason you like to justify breaking them.

 

[boulderjohn]

Do you support the items on the CDS grim reaper sign and NACD stop sign,and feel it is not safe for nontrained divers to enter the overhead? Can you answer these questions yes or no,because really there is no "but" or grey area.

You did realize when you wrote this that Grim Reaper and NACD warnings are placed at the end of the cavern zone to warn untrained divers that going beyond those signs is unsafe, didn't you? Does not the existence of those signs indicate an acceptance of non-cave trained divers in the cavern area?

Best practice is to stay within the limits of your training. If there is any overhead and you aren't trained don't do that dive. We have standards for a reason. You can choose to follow them or come up with whatever reason you like to justify breaking them.

We just had a roaring debate on this topic in another thread. There is no standard that anyone is breaking when they enter basic overhead environments. All the standards that people think of are for the conditions under which divers are trained and certified. They limit the instructors choices when dealing with students. No agency really has the power to tell people how to dive when they are on their own. There are governments that make rules. For example, when diving in the marine park in Cozumel, you are required by law to have a divemaster lead your dive. In most cases, that divemaster will lead untrained divers through swim throughs of varying complexity, because there is no law or rule or standard prohibiting it.

EDIT: PADI's safe diving statement, which provides guidance to divers but has no rule of authority, tells them specifically not to go into CAVES without proper training. It does not mention "lesser" overhead environments.

 

[syntaxerrorsix]

Do what you want, there's a good chance you won't die from what you don't know a couple of times at least. Roll the dice.

I'm not the SCUBA police however I can have an opinion on what the various agencies have taught me. They think it's a bad idea to exceed your level of training, this include training environments. We can call that limiting instructor liability or common sense or a healthy dose of each.

 

[boulderjohn]

Do what you want, there's a good chance you won't die from what you don't know a couple of times at least. Roll the dice.

I'm not the SCUBA police however I can have an opinion on what the various agencies have taught me. They think it's a bad idea to exceed your level of training, this include training environments. We can call that limiting instructor liability or common sense or a healthy dose of each.

Here's the problem--when you say ALL overheads are off limits to people without technical training, then you are imposing an unrealistic rule that is clearly excessive in certain cases. If a recreational diver with over 1,000 dives in a variety of conditions goes to Cozumel and does a simple 8-10 foot swim through, are you saying he is rolling the dice and is all too likely to end up dead? Maybe you will say that, but I warrant that he will laugh in your face and swim on through. In fact, many, many thousands of divers do that regularly.

Here is why that is important.

A few years ago a road I traveled regularly on my commute was a multi-lane divided highway with a speed limit of 55 mph. I think the majority of divers using it when I was there were going close to 80 mph, and there were a pretty fair number of accidents. To everyone's shock, the Department of Transportation reacted by raising the speed limit to 65 mph. Interviewed on the news to explain a decision that seemed to violate common sense, their spokesperson said the decision was based on studies on human psychology. She said that studies revealed that even without speed limits, most people will drive at a speed that is reasonably safe for the conditions, and the fact that the vast majority of people were exceeding the speed limit by so much indicated they thought the speed limit was unreasonably low. She then said studies also said that if people think a rule or limit is reasonable, they will tend to obey it. When it is unreasonable, they decide it should be disobeyed. Once they start disobeying it, they tend to really push it. Their hope was that by making a speed limit more in line with common sense, the drivers would be more likely to obey it.

A follow up a year later showed that the plan was a great success. When they raised the speed limit by 10 mph, the actual average driving speed actually came down, and so did the accident rate.

When people are told that no overhead is safe for people without cave diving certification, they look at simple arches and swim throughs and say, "Yea, right!" Then they conclude that this stupid "no overheads" rule is a crock. Once they make that decision, how do you convince them that the "no caves" rule is more valid. Do you say, "OK, we lied last time, but this time we really mean it"?

 

[syntaxerrorsix]

Here's the problem--when you say ALL overheads are off limits to people without technical training, then you are imposing an unrealistic rule that is clearly excessive in certain cases.

Start you own agency with that mission statement then. It's not unrealistic at all. After OW you should be able to plan and execute a safe dive based on the training you have received in the environment you received it. You can follow the advice you paid for or you can be the idiot that pays for advise and doesn't take it.

Again...standards, You can choose to follow them or come up with whatever reason you like to justify breaking them.

 

[boulderjohn]

S

Again...standards, You can choose to follow them or come up with whatever reason you like to justify breaking them.

Again--what standards are you talking about? Please quote them.

 

[syntaxerrorsix]

Again--what standards are you talking about? Please quote them.

Have you bumped your head? Choose your agency and let me know which one doesn't warn against overhead environments in the course curriculum?

For ****s sake even the OP knows better.

 

[karstdvr]

Again--what standards are you talking about? Please quote them.

Standards,rules,recommendations,hints,and please with sugar on it-semantics for the basic understanding that entering the overhead without training increases your risk. Exceeding risk in this sport unfortunately time and time again has lead to fatalities.

So what you are saying supports my comments.

When people are told that no overhead is safe for people without cave diving certification, they look at simple arches and swim throughs and say, "Yea, right!" Then they conclude that this stupid "no overheads" rule is a crock. Once they make that decision, how do you convince them that the "no caves" rule is more valid. Do you say, "OK, we lied last time, but this time we really mean it"?

So you have people doing tours in Mexico and entering the overhead with a cave diver,wow I can do this no real big deal. Then perhaps a little,leads to a little more,and then you are into the cave zone.

We can't stop this,but as safe cave divers we can not condone it,which has occurred in this thread,and to maintain credibility with the public,show we don't agree with this activity.

 

[syntaxerrorsix]

"It couldn't happen to me, boulderjon is an instructor and I have 8 dives. I've got this."