Dr Wu
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I don't think it would be a good idea ho have OW students practice surfacing with an unconscious diver.
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The whole thing is that with new divers who have been properly trained and follow that training, OOA, unconsciousness, or panic is a low risk. But that team could also come upon Joe Once a Year Dive with my hand held by the DM who loses the DM, or is too busy taking photos of everything and runs out of air. That buddy team that had rescue skills in OW don't have to call for a "rescue diver" or DM. They act and perhaps save a life. I will not go into Ow with some who cannot perform a basic rescue. That includes my OW students on checkouts. They have had basic rescue skills and are proficient enough in them that if I had a problem I know they could save me or at least get me to shore. They would not be doing checkouts if they could not. It takes me 1 hour of lecture or so, and one 2 hour pool session to get them to that point. To say it would add too much time or be too much for the OW student is BS.
The one thing I would like to see, is a single exersize of how to escape from the clutches of a panicked diver in OW. Other than that, there are many examples of how professional rescuers nearly became victims them selves while trying to rescue a dosile panicked pearson who became a wild cat once they made physical contact.
We might be asking a bit to much from OW students.
IMHO its better to spend some extra time on the subject that already is covered in OW, like always to keep the regulator and mask in place, do proper dive planning (including getting help), and dive within personal limitations.
If we follow the safeguards that already are in place, and we still need rescuing, than IMHO chances are that we need help that is beyond inexperienced recreational divers abilities. Seasoned and experienced divers on the other hand probably already picked up the skills, and confidence to get out of a rescue gone bad.
We might be asking a bit to much from OW students.
IMHO its better to spend some extra time on the subject that already is covered in OW, like always to keep the regulator and mask in place, do proper dive planning (including getting help), and dive within personal limitations.
If we follow the safeguards that already are in place, and we still need rescuing, than IMHO chances are that we need help that is beyond inexperienced recreational divers abilities. Seasoned and experienced divers on the other hand probably already picked up the skills, and confidence to get out of a rescue gone bad.
In my rescue class, my instructor said he really enjoys doing the rescue class, he played the panic diver and he really tried to climb on top of me as a float. Great training that really pushed me. Yes the first thing is keep away but the rest was working to getting control of the panic diver from behind teaching tricks like swiming under him and releasing bubbles so he can't see you. Great stuff to learn.
I think about the level I needed to be at to really deal with that situation. I can't see many new OW divers being anywhere near capable of handling that. Maybe the best way to deal this is to teach the new diver to keep 20 feet between you and a panic diver and trying to talk calmly to them, because the first rule in rescue is don't become another victim.
The PADI courses are teaching diver tows to the OW students so if something does happen they can get someone to shore or the boat be it the insturctor when they get to OW or another diver.
I think about the level I needed to be at to really deal with that situation. I can't see many new OW divers being anywhere near capable of handling that. Maybe the best way to deal this is to teach the new diver to keep 20 feet between you and a panic diver and trying to talk calmly to them, because the first rule in rescue is don't become another victim.
The PADI courses are teaching diver tows to the OW students so if something does happen they can get someone to shore or the boat be it the insturctor when they get to OW or another diver.
Well from my experience as limited as it may be I still think all agencies should teach panic and rescue situations. I can say that in our NAUI classes we do teach it. I think that dealing with new divers and other new divers diving with new divers they are a lot more likely to encounter the panic situation. We strongly teach that it is better to have 1 dead diver then 2 dead divers and having a panicked diver come after you can get you in trouble.
Not to start a PADI fight but from everything I hear and read from divers on this board PADI seems to care more about the numbers and money then the real education and safety. Thats where a good PADI instructor need to step up and go the extra mile for the safety and education.
Again I personally think all agencies should be required to teach it.
Not to start a PADI fight but from everything I hear and read from divers on this board PADI seems to care more about the numbers and money then the real education and safety. Thats where a good PADI instructor need to step up and go the extra mile for the safety and education.
Again I personally think all agencies should be required to teach it.
Seraphimx
Contributor
I'm not saying in any way that it should be covered in depth.
Furthermore, I'd be against learning how to surface with an unconscious diver from depth. I said an unconscious diver at the surface, which is easier and simply knowing the way to "tow" someone without killing yourself in the process. And can be totally separate from good buddy skill. Your partner has an heart attack on surface. Well you can't just leave him there, but you can't kill yourself trying to save him.
Unconcious Diver : It's put the diver on back, inflate bc, fins while pulling from BC at chest level, your fins should go on side of diver, tow. Pretty simple.
Panicked diver. Approach diver from front, talk to him first, try approaching, if he tries to grab you push back, if he tries again GTFO. Pretty Simple, no?
It should be something taught at the end of the class, before certification. It takes 30-60min max.
Furthermore, why should a diver need to have a AOW to learn rescue? I find this absurd. Can't an OW diver learn rescue procedures? Will you use your compass (another thing taught in CMAS level 1) to rescue someone, of need to dive deep to rescue someone? I think not, i think it's only a way to make more $$$$$.
Furthermore, I'd be against learning how to surface with an unconscious diver from depth. I said an unconscious diver at the surface, which is easier and simply knowing the way to "tow" someone without killing yourself in the process. And can be totally separate from good buddy skill. Your partner has an heart attack on surface. Well you can't just leave him there, but you can't kill yourself trying to save him.
Unconcious Diver : It's put the diver on back, inflate bc, fins while pulling from BC at chest level, your fins should go on side of diver, tow. Pretty simple.
Panicked diver. Approach diver from front, talk to him first, try approaching, if he tries to grab you push back, if he tries again GTFO. Pretty Simple, no?
It should be something taught at the end of the class, before certification. It takes 30-60min max.
Furthermore, why should a diver need to have a AOW to learn rescue? I find this absurd. Can't an OW diver learn rescue procedures? Will you use your compass (another thing taught in CMAS level 1) to rescue someone, of need to dive deep to rescue someone? I think not, i think it's only a way to make more $$$$$.
I think the scuba industry as a whole has turned more towards preventative measure rather than active measures regarding scuba accidents. They're now focusing on prevent the problem before it occurs instead of how to treat the problem when it occurs. Because of this mindset, with PADI's approach they've decided to get rid of the unconscious rescue and panicked diver.
From what I've seen, I think agencies and a lot of instructors will chose to do "pointless" exercises to get students comfortable in the water rather than spend extra time practicing rescues. Drills such as Skin D&R's and Scuba D&R etc. No real world applications but loads of practice at keeping calm and collect under the water.
I'm not saying I disagree with this for the Basic OW class, but I would like to see basic rescues discussed and at least practiced once for every Basic class.
I'll also second what PRL has said. No scuba class I have seen has yet to cover how to break free from a diver who's holding/climbing over you. Rather they teach how important it is to prevent that situation from evening happening.
When I got lifeguard certified they stressed this as well, but they also taught us how to break someone's hold on you. I'd be interested to see an agency include this in their Rescue class.
From what I've seen, I think agencies and a lot of instructors will chose to do "pointless" exercises to get students comfortable in the water rather than spend extra time practicing rescues. Drills such as Skin D&R's and Scuba D&R etc. No real world applications but loads of practice at keeping calm and collect under the water.
I'm not saying I disagree with this for the Basic OW class, but I would like to see basic rescues discussed and at least practiced once for every Basic class.
I'll also second what PRL has said. No scuba class I have seen has yet to cover how to break free from a diver who's holding/climbing over you. Rather they teach how important it is to prevent that situation from evening happening.
When I got lifeguard certified they stressed this as well, but they also taught us how to break someone's hold on you. I'd be interested to see an agency include this in their Rescue class.
Over my time lurking on this board it seems that everyone has something they feel should be taught to the OW students. So out of all those things what do we add in and what do we delete. How much of a rescue would you teach. As said PADI does teach diver tows all ready, what more in addition to that would you teach in rescue course? A good instructor would talk about panic divers and that would only take an additional couple of minutes and I would believe most good courses are getting that.
I can see the logic of requiring AOW and first aid for a full diver rescue course. A diver that is really taking the course should be a confident/good diver to get the rescue diver cert, like I said my PADI rescue course the instructor really pushed me. The majority of OW students wouldnt' have been able to complete it.
60 minutes is a significant amount of time added to a course that is all ready packed into the short amount of time they conduct these classes in. There is no way you can cover all the rescue stuff in that amount of time either. So you have to decide what in rescue your gonna cover in the class, pool, and OW dive
Again I ask for the bottom line, is there a real need for it. Can some sight stats that would say this would improve safety or correct a problem that is occuring? Or is it an elitist thing?
Pluses and negatives to everything . It's easy to say "those guys should....." or " that's BS" I'm not saying I'm against the idea but I am seeing both sides and no one is identifying a problem we are trying to correct just "they should" stuff.
I can see the logic of requiring AOW and first aid for a full diver rescue course. A diver that is really taking the course should be a confident/good diver to get the rescue diver cert, like I said my PADI rescue course the instructor really pushed me. The majority of OW students wouldnt' have been able to complete it.
60 minutes is a significant amount of time added to a course that is all ready packed into the short amount of time they conduct these classes in. There is no way you can cover all the rescue stuff in that amount of time either. So you have to decide what in rescue your gonna cover in the class, pool, and OW dive
Again I ask for the bottom line, is there a real need for it. Can some sight stats that would say this would improve safety or correct a problem that is occuring? Or is it an elitist thing?
Pluses and negatives to everything . It's easy to say "those guys should....." or " that's BS" I'm not saying I'm against the idea but I am seeing both sides and no one is identifying a problem we are trying to correct just "they should" stuff.
Seraphimx
Contributor
I'm pretty much with the PADI style that they should concentrate on good Buddy Skills and PREVENTING more then REACTING. I'm for that a 100%.
As g1138 said most OW class that teach rescue won't teach you how to break free from a panicked diver.
What I'm saying is that OW should teach you how to PREVENT exhausting yourself to death while trying to tow someone passive at the surface.
PREVENT a Panicked Diver from grabbing you. We had one example and one try. It wasn't that long and it follows the PADI prevention line.
Is there REAL need. Well is there REAL need for buddy breathing? To me both are important. This prepares you for when things go wrong. They aren't asking you to play RAMBO, most of the time they tell you to leave the person to their fate.
Same thing for a Narced diver, they tell you that if someone ignores your warning to go up and they continue going down narced you need to abandon them and not DIE.
Most diver will likely dive in the Tropics on vacation, let's say a casual diver near you gets into a frenzy over his gear because he cant make it work and freaks out at the surface, shouldn't you know the basic fact that you should approach a panicked person facing them, that if this person tries to grab you; you should put distance between you and him/her and try talking to him/her, that if they continue panicking you should just leave? This sounds to me like its a pretty important skill.
Hell, I think this is far more important than swimming around without my mask, that was truly a waste of time.
As g1138 said most OW class that teach rescue won't teach you how to break free from a panicked diver.
What I'm saying is that OW should teach you how to PREVENT exhausting yourself to death while trying to tow someone passive at the surface.
PREVENT a Panicked Diver from grabbing you. We had one example and one try. It wasn't that long and it follows the PADI prevention line.
Is there REAL need. Well is there REAL need for buddy breathing? To me both are important. This prepares you for when things go wrong. They aren't asking you to play RAMBO, most of the time they tell you to leave the person to their fate.
Same thing for a Narced diver, they tell you that if someone ignores your warning to go up and they continue going down narced you need to abandon them and not DIE.
Most diver will likely dive in the Tropics on vacation, let's say a casual diver near you gets into a frenzy over his gear because he cant make it work and freaks out at the surface, shouldn't you know the basic fact that you should approach a panicked person facing them, that if this person tries to grab you; you should put distance between you and him/her and try talking to him/her, that if they continue panicking you should just leave? This sounds to me like its a pretty important skill.
Hell, I think this is far more important than swimming around without my mask, that was truly a waste of time.
Specifically in response to endurodog:
Big complaint at my university (NAUI Program) is that our Rescue class teaches a lot of things that were already taught in Basic. It just seems more like a review session. The only new things that are taught in a our Rescue class is Searches and Group Management for a rescue or a lost diver/object search.
I think that should really be a defining characteristic between Basic OW and Rescue divers. Both Basic OW and Rescue divers can rescue their buddies.
But where a Basic diver's doesn't have to be pretty, a Rescue divers should be near so, since he/she would have already had some practice in Basic. Additionally a Rescue diver will have group management skills for a Search and Recover OP, skills that won't be taught in Basic.
Yes this does make the class slightly repetitive but heck a lot of other things are too. And honesty rescues are one thing where I think repetition and practice are important
Edit:
And hey, Seraphimix I still think maskless swimming is a good skill the practice. Especially after being on the giving end of a mask kick. All I have to say is I'm glad my Basic student was calm enough to give me the bird while she did her mask clear.
Big complaint at my university (NAUI Program) is that our Rescue class teaches a lot of things that were already taught in Basic. It just seems more like a review session. The only new things that are taught in a our Rescue class is Searches and Group Management for a rescue or a lost diver/object search.
I think that should really be a defining characteristic between Basic OW and Rescue divers. Both Basic OW and Rescue divers can rescue their buddies.
But where a Basic diver's doesn't have to be pretty, a Rescue divers should be near so, since he/she would have already had some practice in Basic. Additionally a Rescue diver will have group management skills for a Search and Recover OP, skills that won't be taught in Basic.
Yes this does make the class slightly repetitive but heck a lot of other things are too. And honesty rescues are one thing where I think repetition and practice are important
Edit:
And hey, Seraphimix I still think maskless swimming is a good skill the practice. Especially after being on the giving end of a mask kick. All I have to say is I'm glad my Basic student was calm enough to give me the bird while she did her mask clear.
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