Ultima Dry Glove System question
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Deep South Divers
Contributor
Fantastic review... And thanks for the mention! 
The video that Simply Scuba shows is with a set of black latex gloves. These kinds of gloves are unlined, and thus can be sealed against the suit using either the inside of the glove or the outside of the glove. It simply doesn't matter. Simply Scuba shows how to seal the INSIDE of the glove to the hard glove ring, which means that the rubber o-ring goes OVER the glove.
With gloves like the 620, 660, and 720, the inside of the glove is lined - and therefore the OUTSIDE of the glove seals against the hard glove ring, and the o-ring goes INSIDE the glove... Which is tougher to install... But we've figured out some tricks.
Personally, as a commercial diver, I find latex gloves to be entirely too delicate. I find them very easy to "hole." The 620's are much tougher, but much stiffer... And the 660s even moreso. The 720s are nitrile - which is very different than either latex or PVC - and are tougher still than the 660s but almost as stretchy and easy to install as latex. What's really amazing about them is that they're also thinner than PVC - meaning your hand is more dexterous and you get a better "feel" through the glove. Nitrile also has some insulative properties to it, meaning that they're warmer than PVC and A LOT warmer than latex gloves - even if you choose not to dive with an underglove ("glove liner").
As you've mentioned, I found them so tough and reliably dry that I trimmed my wrist seals all the way back. They're still there between the hard suit ring and the glued-in suitside soft ring, so as to act as a seal between those two... But the silicone ends before it comes into the suit, and for all intents and purposes is missing completely to the wearer.
Mind you - I COULD have kept my wrist seals just fine... There's nothing wrong with leaving them in there, and the system works great with wrist seals. I agree with you on the silicone, by the way... I actually find them MORE durable than latex - because latex "weathers," turns brown, and loses its elasticity over time, even when stored out of sunlight and coated in talc. Silicone stays soft and compliant virtually indefinitely... So even though mine are trimmed all the way back, I chose silicone instead of latex. The little "lip" on the silicone helps keep the seal in place during installation, too.
...Anyway, I'm no drier with or without my silicone wrist seals "removed" or not... Wrist seals simply don't work for me at all. I literally could not dive a drysuit without drygloves. Here's a video of why:
...So with my wrist seals virtually worthless, and me pretty much relying 100% on the integrity of the dryglove to keep my drysuit dry, I just went ahead and trimmed them back like I did to make donning and doffing that much easier.
...And boy, is it ever! Easily the most comfortable, driest system I've ever dived.
...Which is why I retrofitted all of my drysuits with the same system.
The video that Simply Scuba shows is with a set of black latex gloves. These kinds of gloves are unlined, and thus can be sealed against the suit using either the inside of the glove or the outside of the glove. It simply doesn't matter. Simply Scuba shows how to seal the INSIDE of the glove to the hard glove ring, which means that the rubber o-ring goes OVER the glove.
With gloves like the 620, 660, and 720, the inside of the glove is lined - and therefore the OUTSIDE of the glove seals against the hard glove ring, and the o-ring goes INSIDE the glove... Which is tougher to install... But we've figured out some tricks.
Personally, as a commercial diver, I find latex gloves to be entirely too delicate. I find them very easy to "hole." The 620's are much tougher, but much stiffer... And the 660s even moreso. The 720s are nitrile - which is very different than either latex or PVC - and are tougher still than the 660s but almost as stretchy and easy to install as latex. What's really amazing about them is that they're also thinner than PVC - meaning your hand is more dexterous and you get a better "feel" through the glove. Nitrile also has some insulative properties to it, meaning that they're warmer than PVC and A LOT warmer than latex gloves - even if you choose not to dive with an underglove ("glove liner").
As you've mentioned, I found them so tough and reliably dry that I trimmed my wrist seals all the way back. They're still there between the hard suit ring and the glued-in suitside soft ring, so as to act as a seal between those two... But the silicone ends before it comes into the suit, and for all intents and purposes is missing completely to the wearer.
Mind you - I COULD have kept my wrist seals just fine... There's nothing wrong with leaving them in there, and the system works great with wrist seals. I agree with you on the silicone, by the way... I actually find them MORE durable than latex - because latex "weathers," turns brown, and loses its elasticity over time, even when stored out of sunlight and coated in talc. Silicone stays soft and compliant virtually indefinitely... So even though mine are trimmed all the way back, I chose silicone instead of latex. The little "lip" on the silicone helps keep the seal in place during installation, too.
...Anyway, I'm no drier with or without my silicone wrist seals "removed" or not... Wrist seals simply don't work for me at all. I literally could not dive a drysuit without drygloves. Here's a video of why:
...So with my wrist seals virtually worthless, and me pretty much relying 100% on the integrity of the dryglove to keep my drysuit dry, I just went ahead and trimmed them back like I did to make donning and doffing that much easier.
...And boy, is it ever! Easily the most comfortable, driest system I've ever dived.
...Which is why I retrofitted all of my drysuits with the same system.
Deep South Divers
Contributor
By the way... Since you were waiting on your 720s to arrive, what gloves did you originally use with the Ultima system? Were the o-rings installed inside the glove or over the glove?
First, thanks for the comment on the site - If you don't mind I'm going to snag most of what you posted above to use as an update. I don't remember the name, but they are the blue ones the ring went inside the glove. I think it had a red ring around the cuff. They didn't have a name on them. Another pair that I might try and was a pair that I got at home depot, where the fingers were a bit rough. I liked the dexterity of them the best. I think longevity is second to dexterity as I use my fingers a lot, especially when I have students. I am looking forward to the 720 for that reason.
Once I get comfortable that the gloves won't leak and I tear a couple of seals I may try going sealless, but for now I'll deal with the tubes.
One of the things I didn't like about latex was that even when stored properly they would turn that mushy gooey mess, almost melting. Never had that issue with silicone.
Deep South Divers
Contributor
Absolutely you are welcome to anything I've posted here on the subject. I'm flattered!
Feel free to link videos if it suits you as well. Here's a long ramble I did one day last winter... There's a lot of great info in it if you're willing to deal with the length:
I'm not familiar with the red striped gloves that you mention... But you'll love these 720s for sure.
Feel free to link videos if it suits you as well. Here's a long ramble I did one day last winter... There's a lot of great info in it if you're willing to deal with the length:
I'm not familiar with the red striped gloves that you mention... But you'll love these 720s for sure.
Deep South Divers
Contributor
Oh... And I couldn't agree more with you on latex. The stuff's a real PITA, frankly, and it's only advantage is that it can be glued directly to the suit... Which, in the case of neck seals I really enjoy, as there's no ring that makes donning and doffing a bit trickier.
...Of course, that advantage goes right out the window the moment you hole or split a latex neck seal and have to send the suit in to be repaired.
I not only find silicone neck seals to last longer and generally be stretchier and more comfortable, but when they do get damaged the ring makes them easy to replace right at the dive site.
Of course, they make latex seals for the rings too, but what's the advantage of that? Two seasons later they're mushy and gooey. Silicone just doesn't have that problem.
...Of course, that advantage goes right out the window the moment you hole or split a latex neck seal and have to send the suit in to be repaired.
I not only find silicone neck seals to last longer and generally be stretchier and more comfortable, but when they do get damaged the ring makes them easy to replace right at the dive site.
Of course, they make latex seals for the rings too, but what's the advantage of that? Two seasons later they're mushy and gooey. Silicone just doesn't have that problem.
Deep South Divers
Contributor
BTW... No need for tubes when you go "sealless"... Which is a misnomer, actually, since the seal is still there in order to make the connection watertight between the glued-in, soft suit ring to the suit-side hard ring of the Ultima rings. It's just trimmed back a lot - to the point where it's only maybe an inch wide.
But point is - one less thing to have to mess with while getting in and out of the suit, which is nice.
Before going "sealless," I often ditched the tubes and just kept the thumb loop of my undergarment under the wrist seal. That seemed to be enough to equalize the gloves - not that mine were airtight anyway. :-/
But point is - one less thing to have to mess with while getting in and out of the suit, which is nice.
Before going "sealless," I often ditched the tubes and just kept the thumb loop of my undergarment under the wrist seal. That seemed to be enough to equalize the gloves - not that mine were airtight anyway. :-/
insomniac
Contributor
I've been lurking in the thread for a while and figured I should add my two cents.... First off, if you are considering anything Si-Tech; stay away. I've had four of their systems installed between two dry suits and they all leaked / were difficult to use. The Ultima system is truly ultimate! I was a super early adopter, and have had this system for two years and it's been so much better than I could have hope for. They are super easy to don on and off; but the only downside is I found it to be the ultimate challenge to install new gloves onto the system. And in regards to preference for dry gloves, I much prefer the 620's over the 660's (they have more dexterity for me when wearing the Fourth Element G1's or Wool Gloves). I wear XXL with the L G1's and my wife wears XL with M G1's.
That said, I typically only get the opportunity to dive my drysuit about 15-20 dives per year, so there are long periods of time between leaky gloves. The last trip I went on; I had a leaky glove on my first dive (I think I remembered it (afterwards) leaking the last time I had worn it months ago; but it was my last dive so I was lazy and never replaced it). This dive was from shore, and I had a two days left before we would be doing three dives a day from a boat. Of course I waited until the night before our diving began to replace my glove. I had my jig system all ready, and I completely forgot how to use it... I mean COMPLETELY FORGOT, as I literally spent between 10:00PM and 3:00AM trying to fit my one glove on the Ultima ring. With each failed attempt my fingers got weaker/more sore, and I had pretty much lost all hope. We were in a remote location with no internet, so I couldn't reference the old diving concepts jig that is similar to mine; and I went almost crazy spending 5 hours fitting the glove with no success; and I was kicking myself for not handling this sooner and for not creating a video for the internet (and myself) on how I use my jig as I never thought it would be so difficult for me to remember how to do this...
All that to say, my wife woke up around 6:00AM and somehow managed to get the glove on the system in about 15 minutes on her second try (using just part of my jig). That said, when we had a leaky glove later in the week she was unable to reproduce this success...
The funniest thing about all this is; we didn't realize it at the time, but we were on the same trip as MaxBottomTime; and he might have been able to help us with his clamp system (although it might not have fit the Ultima as well as it did his diving concepts setup). We didn't realize it until the trip was over; but we both knew each other from instagram and also I knew him from this forum. Later on the trip, as we got to know each other better; one thing we learned is his older diving concepts rings were not only a different size than the Ultima system, but also they were exponentially more difficult to don on and off than my Ultima's (as the Ultima's are virtually effortless to don and doff). We think this is due to the older o-rings on his diving concepts rings.
Finally, I made a relatively long video of the jig system I use (below). My o-rings do not stretch easily at all (even after removing and re-installing many times over 2 years). So the solutions I've seen other people do in a matter of seconds don't work for me, as I can't get the strength/leverage needed to stretch the o-ring like that with just my hands. Hopefully this video helps someone, but if not at least I have it for my own future reference when I forget how I use it again The success rate with my system is about 90% on the first try and completed in under 5 minutes. Typically, the faster I go; the lower my chances are of not screwing something up and needing to start over. So by no means is my method fast; but it works relatively reliably and really helps to prevents sore fingers.
That said, I typically only get the opportunity to dive my drysuit about 15-20 dives per year, so there are long periods of time between leaky gloves. The last trip I went on; I had a leaky glove on my first dive (I think I remembered it (afterwards) leaking the last time I had worn it months ago; but it was my last dive so I was lazy and never replaced it). This dive was from shore, and I had a two days left before we would be doing three dives a day from a boat. Of course I waited until the night before our diving began to replace my glove. I had my jig system all ready, and I completely forgot how to use it... I mean COMPLETELY FORGOT, as I literally spent between 10:00PM and 3:00AM trying to fit my one glove on the Ultima ring. With each failed attempt my fingers got weaker/more sore, and I had pretty much lost all hope. We were in a remote location with no internet, so I couldn't reference the old diving concepts jig that is similar to mine; and I went almost crazy spending 5 hours fitting the glove with no success; and I was kicking myself for not handling this sooner and for not creating a video for the internet (and myself) on how I use my jig as I never thought it would be so difficult for me to remember how to do this...
All that to say, my wife woke up around 6:00AM and somehow managed to get the glove on the system in about 15 minutes on her second try (using just part of my jig). That said, when we had a leaky glove later in the week she was unable to reproduce this success...
The funniest thing about all this is; we didn't realize it at the time, but we were on the same trip as MaxBottomTime; and he might have been able to help us with his clamp system (although it might not have fit the Ultima as well as it did his diving concepts setup). We didn't realize it until the trip was over; but we both knew each other from instagram and also I knew him from this forum. Later on the trip, as we got to know each other better; one thing we learned is his older diving concepts rings were not only a different size than the Ultima system, but also they were exponentially more difficult to don on and off than my Ultima's (as the Ultima's are virtually effortless to don and doff). We think this is due to the older o-rings on his diving concepts rings.
Finally, I made a relatively long video of the jig system I use (below). My o-rings do not stretch easily at all (even after removing and re-installing many times over 2 years). So the solutions I've seen other people do in a matter of seconds don't work for me, as I can't get the strength/leverage needed to stretch the o-ring like that with just my hands. Hopefully this video helps someone, but if not at least I have it for my own future reference when I forget how I use it again
The success rate with my system is about 90% on the first try and completed in under 5 minutes. Typically, the faster I go; the lower my chances are of not screwing something up and needing to start over. So by no means is my method fast; but it works relatively reliably and really helps to prevents sore fingers.
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Deep South Divers
Contributor
Quality work, insomniac!! Great video!
I built something like your PVC tool too, but having adapted the idea from an old Diving Concepts instructional video, I used a 4" pipe rather than a 4" coupler. Of course, it didn't work, and I kept losing my o-ring and glove when I tried to slip it off the tool and onto the Ultima ring. Now I see what I was doing wrong! Thank you!
The black gloves you show toward the end are likely neoprene chemical gloves. I assume you don't simply dive those all the time instead of the 620s because they're big and bulky. Is that right? How about a review of those gloves for us here?
Definitely get a set of 720s to try. They are much stretchier than the 620s... At least as much as the 620s are over the 660s. Loading gloves on the glove-side ring is WAY easier when the glove is stretchy.
The 720s are also tougher and warmer than the 620s and 660s... Even though they're thinner and more dexterous, which is counterintuitive. The magic comes from the material: The nitrile in the 720s is just better stuff for drysuit gloves than the PVC in the 620s and 660s.
...But don't take my word for it. Call SHOWA and request a few samples. They're free.
I built something like your PVC tool too, but having adapted the idea from an old Diving Concepts instructional video, I used a 4" pipe rather than a 4" coupler. Of course, it didn't work, and I kept losing my o-ring and glove when I tried to slip it off the tool and onto the Ultima ring. Now I see what I was doing wrong! Thank you!
The black gloves you show toward the end are likely neoprene chemical gloves. I assume you don't simply dive those all the time instead of the 620s because they're big and bulky. Is that right? How about a review of those gloves for us here?
Definitely get a set of 720s to try. They are much stretchier than the 620s... At least as much as the 620s are over the 660s. Loading gloves on the glove-side ring is WAY easier when the glove is stretchy.
The 720s are also tougher and warmer than the 620s and 660s... Even though they're thinner and more dexterous, which is counterintuitive. The magic comes from the material: The nitrile in the 720s is just better stuff for drysuit gloves than the PVC in the 620s and 660s.
...But don't take my word for it. Call SHOWA and request a few samples. They're free.
Merry
Contributor
Insomniac is correct about the clamps. The Ultima glove ring is shorter than the Diving Concepts ring so the clamp kept sliding off. Phil (Max Bottomtime) made me put my hands through Insomniac's rings to see if they were too tight. They were perfect so Phil secretly order a set for me. Without a jig or a working clamp system I had to hold the rings while Phil stretched the gloves over. We managed to get the gloves on in less than a minute each but it was a bit painful. I think a stationary jig, whether a round piece of wood or PVC pipe to hold the glove ring will be the easiest and fastest way.
Phil just ordered a set of Ultima rings for himself so he'd better get to the hardware store before they arrive.
Phil just ordered a set of Ultima rings for himself so he'd better get to the hardware store before they arrive.
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