Uncertified Scoundrels Teaching the Public to Dive in Libya

[JamesBon92007]

"An overseeing government agency" keeps coming up by posters from the US.
In the US, is there such a government agency that oversees and regulates scuba activities? Like for drivers licenses and driving rules and enforcement of such? I thought the industry is "self regulating" (Making, breaking and enforcing the rules ... or not) - isn't it?

Much to my surprise, there is no government agency that oversees scuba diving in the USA, not even in California where everything is illegal. The only aspect that I can think of is that we are required to have our tanks hydro tested every five years, and that's a federal law. All the rest is done voluntarily (ha ha). We are not required by law to get a VIP on our tanks every year but probably nobody will fill them if we don't. We are not required to be certified but you will have a tough time trying to dive if you are not. So far, my guess is that the industry self-regulation probably is a lot better than having the government step in. I have noticed, however, that many new divers refer to their certification as a license, which it is not. I don't necessarily agree with how everything is done but since only a very small percentage of divers here become injured or killed, it must be working. The ones who would probably not agree are that very small percentage.

 

[Magnus Lundstedt]

Much to my surprise, there is no government agency that oversees scuba diving in the USA, not even in California where everything is illegal. The only aspect that I can think of is that we are required to have our tanks hydro tested every five years, and that's a federal law.

That law only apply if you are transporting your tanks on public roads. If you have your own compressor, live by the beach and dive from home, there is no law prohibit you from skipping the hydro.

 

[Midwesterndvr]

I think the us system of self regulation within the industry is probably the best system overall, it’s not perfect but it has a good track record. Often when there’s a government policing body over a self regulated industry it serves as a rubber stamp on the industry itself, or it seems to over regulate with legislation from unelected officials. In this case when any type of accident occurs “we need to do somthing so this never happens again” mentality takes over and attaches the victims name to the new law” so they didn’t die in for nothing”. In my opinion government regulated fun is no fun at all. The reason I don’t think scuba needs this kind of oversight is the diver is the one (and should be the one) who holds all the risk.

 

[BoltSnap]

If you know of instructors selling certificates to uncertified instructors, you can try to raise a standards violation against them but if they are not part of your organisation it could be difficult.

Trying to do that but the international agencies don't have a practical way to do quality control remotely. Also, they, the dive training agencies, aren't always in a rush or very eager to take drastic measures, as I found out, to weed out their bad apples in an emerging market they are trying to keep their "hands in" unfortunately. Without divulging what I know, it all stinks from the roots to the top of the tree.

One of the best ways around these sorts of issues is publicity - get national news to take up the story and there is a good chance that might cause the public to question their actions ("should I trust the instructor?") as well as the agencies involved. That way you might just make a difference.

I have been trying to do it on my own on my FB pages to spread the word as a start. It is a long way before I can make a big difference. There are few steps I am taking with more far reaching implications but all in due time.

Of course there is nothing stopping the instructors setting up their own agency with whatever bulltish cards they decide to make up. It costs very little for a card printer these days.

Note, most of the problem isn't coming from certified instructors selling c-cards to fake instructors or to consumers without training, it is actually mostly uncertified individuals selling "training" and not give anything or simply give a home-made certificate. The card printing machine with blank cards and the instructors printing whatever he wishes without proper auditing is happening too btw. The Agency doesn't audit or follow up at all!!

The guys that do this in LIBYA aren't interested in setting up any type of agencies or exerting any effort to run even a semi-professional operation. They don't know anything about even half-assed professional organizations. If they started real certification/training agencies that have standards and are responsible, then it lessen the problem since they will become official responsible but this won't happen in Libya, the market isn't there and the knowledge and capabilities is even less. We are talking about a screwed up third world country that was damaged for 42 years of a tyrant demagogue and now is dysfunctional state.

 

[BoltSnap]

Oh I get it. The student is definitely the biggest loser in the whole operation but is seems there are a couple of different problems happening and you have to figure out which ones to attack first.
In my book getting a handle on the instructors that are essentially brokering their ability to get cards would be step one.
Then attacking the the "certificate giving crowd" would be next. One of the things that in my mind keeps that in check here is having to have a cert card to buy air fills. Until air providers are willing to get on board with limiting who they sell air to, that seems like a pretty insurmountable task in my mind.
That really sucks that you have to deal with all of that. Sounds like it's time for a move.

The steps you mention are correct to a great extent but there are always problems especially in getting the international agencies to start an investigation. The two international big name agencies that have instructors in Libya (not NAUI as I am the only NAUI instructor here), are very lackadaisical in initiating any type of investigation and rather turn a blind eye to what's going on here. They don't want to disturb their presence in this what they consider an "emerging" market and don't want also to disturb their insider relationships here. Unfortunately, I can't share more specific information here.

Air fill guys don't give a horse's manure, they fill to everyone and anyone, certified or not and they fill for many more uncertified than to certified divers. These fill stations are independent guys filling in their garage and not professional dive centers. I don't want to get going on the conditions and safety violations I see here, that's another issue for other threads

 

[BoltSnap]

I can imagine a new diver showing up at an American LDS trying get an air fill with a Libyan c-card.

If you mean a c-card issued by an international agency for a Libyan instructor, I don't see the issue or the objection here. I issue NAUI cards to my students and there shouldn't be an issue with them. If you mean Libyan agency c-cards, this isn't an issue since there are no Libya diver training agencies like the PADI, NAUI, SSI ,etc.

 

[BoltSnap]

I think the us system of self regulation within the industry is probably the best system overall, it’s not perfect but it has a good track record. Often when there’s a government policing body over a self regulated industry it serves as a rubber stamp on the industry itself, or it seems to over regulate with legislation from unelected officials. In this case when any type of accident occurs “we need to do somthing so this never happens again” mentality takes over and attaches the victims name to the new law” so they didn’t die in for nothing”. In my opinion government regulated fun is no fun at all. The reason I don’t think scuba needs this kind of oversight is the diver is the one (and should be the one) who holds all the risk.

There are countries in the world that require instructors to register with the local authorities and to bring their credentials and cv's, etc. (probably medical approval, etc.) before they can teach diving. In the US although there are no specific legal requirements for anything for the recreational market, there is a much tougher checks and balances system, the legal civil court system that keeps everyone in check. As you are aware, if you teach somebody and that somebody gets hurt, the instructor, real or fake, will get his marbles sued and will lose everything if he is found negligent or simply "guilty" even if the law, federal or state, doesn't specify exact requirements for teaching. This is one of the strongest deterrents that maybe much more effective as deterrent than other criminal means. In Libya, a third world country, if somebody dies in the sea, they say that he drowned and sign his burial permit papers and everyone goes home.

 

[BoltSnap]

Is there anything that would prevent someone from teaching scuba without being a certified instructor here in the USA? Of course they would not be able to issue a C-Card but then is there anything that would prevent them from starting their own agency? The newly certified divers might have a difficult time getting a tank filled or getting on a dive boat, but I don't think I've ever heard anything stating that it is illegal. For that matter, at least in California, it's not illegal to scuba dive without a certification, you just can't get tanks filled etc.

If they do start their own agency, this isn't so bad since they become a real agency and an established entity that will be accountable before the legal system and will have to worry a great deal about their assets and being sued. This is how all diver training agencies started and continue to start in the US. It is the individual person who is working under the table and can't be traced for legal accountability. This isn't as much of a problem in the US since you have a much more capable legal system that solves most of the problem through civil suits and fines that work as a considerable deterrent to crooks. We don't have any of this in Libya in the most part now.

 

[BoltSnap]

(beyond implying that it isn't PADI)

I didn't say that "it isn't PADI," I just said that "I didn't say it was PADI." In other words, I am NOT stating what agency, it can be any of the big international names (except NAUI since I am the only NAUI instructor in the country).

 

[BoltSnap]

Take it to the next step. So, someone is aware of shenanigans involving another student. They call $_agency and make a report. Since they may not speak English with 100% fluency, portions of the report may be misunderstood. $_agency follows up by contacting the student and the (purported) instructor. The student answers questions but $_agency is not confident of what is going on because of the language barrier. Contacting the instructor, the agency leaves messages with office staff who do not speak English. The messages get lost. Weeks later, instructor claims that everything is absolutely on the up and up and he personally conducted the course. Meanwhile, the instructor contacts the bogus teacher and the student and does damage control relying on the fact that no one gives a fig what some bureaucrat in London thinks about how they teach diving in Libya.

This isn't an issue at all, all agencies either have staff/reps who are native Arabic speakers or have access to excellent legal translators. There are top translators living and working in Europe and North America. Almost ALL international diver training agencies with instructors in Libya have regional offices in the Middle East or Europe with staff that are native speakers of Arabic no problem at all. If they want to care, the language barrier isn't an issue or an execuse at all.