use of air2 with full face mask

[divewench]

My boyfriend is on the local dive rescue team and they use full face masks (regulator attached), air2s, and are not allowed to carry extra second stages. This requires any OOA emergency to be handled by giving the other diver their Air2. My NAUI training taught me that the hose on the integrated second stage was too short to hand to a buddy (with a full face mask it is the only option). While discussing this issue with a member of their team, the person who sets the rules for the dive rescue team overheard me and jumped down my throat that I wasn't listening to the explanation and didn't know what I was talking about. Well, I have to admit with only 30 dives, I don't know what I am talking about. They told me that an Air2 is better than an non-integrated second stage because it lessens the chance of entanglement and that it was "proper" protocol during an OOA to hold onto your regulator (in their case Air2) so the diver w/o air can breath from it, get the person calm, vent all air, and then both their kick way to the surface. This isn't the procedure I was taught by NAUI for breathing from a buddy's alternate air source (each diver has one hand on each other and the other hand is used to vent as the divers go to the surface) They say that they train this way all the time and it works great, and that I am ignorant (o.k. he didn't come out and say he thought I was ignorant, but it was how I felt after he jumped down my throat for questioning their practice). My boyfriend has been on the team for two years and has never practiced the drill they described. The lead dive rescue guy is a commercial diver with 30+ years of experience.

Is such a procedure considered acceptable for professionals and only not appropriate for recreational divers? Based on my training it seems to me my boyfriend is close to solo diving on each trip because he doesn't have an alternate air source from a buddy (they also aren't allowed to carry pony bottles). It would be nice to hear that this practice is common amongst commercial/safety divers.

As an aside, I have made a "demand" (definitely not healthy in a realtionship) that my boyfriend attach an octo to his rig whenever we dive together. It doesn't feel right to tell him how to dive, should I back off and let him do what he wants? I keep thinking, while the lead guy is a big bully, he has alot of experience and I must be missing something. I wanted to check to see if people with more experience agree that I should relax and trust their experience and not worry about having an octo available from him when I dive (i.e. plan to breath off his AIR2 should anything happen). They also don't carry an extra mask, so if something should happen and one of them needs an outside air source, they will have to take off the full face mask and go up blind, is this a safety issue? They dive this way during missions (when they have shore support) and during recreational "team" dives (without shore support).

 

[Travisc]

Hello,

What yoru talking about here is kind a of a grey area of diving. When you start mixing technical/rescue diving with equipment things get intersting. You have mentioned two very valid concerns. When diving with a full face mask, most manufacturers recommend carrying a spare mask for the exact reasons you mentioned. And I also agree that an Air2 is not exactly an adequate back up. I do not know the full situation, but would not believe that not practicing the drill with their team to be the safest methods off diving. And you are not asking to much of your buddy/boyfriend to have a back up second stage. Personally I dive several configurations, including an air 2 occasionally, but I also have a pony bottle. But all this can lead up to entangle ment. Good luck on your research here, has anyone over in your area dove the missle silo in the Royal City area?

Travis

 

[LUBOLD8431]

FireFighter/ DIve Rescue/ Public Safety divers always think they know best. Its kinda funny, and most of the time, they dont know anything.

Don't worry yourself about it. I would just politely aask them to practice OOA drills with the AIR2. Actually, when most public safety dive teams dive, they are on their own, and have a tether to the surface with a safety manning the tether. So, I really dont see where they are going to be gettting into an air sharing situation. Maybe they are using the AIR2 as a bailout for the FFM??? I dont know, sounds kinda funny...

 

[DA Aquamaster]

I agree on all counts. Many of the members of many public saftey dive teams (I won't generalize and say "all" as there are some very good public saftey divers and teams around) tend to think they are God's gift to diving but in reality have serious unaddressed philosphical, equipment and training issues.

Some of this can stem from the backgrounds and day jobs of some of these individuals. A hard charging police officer for example will naturally try to take charge and control the situation. It's appropriate in most law enforecment situations but not always the ideal situation in diving situations. The reality is that the training and rationale for decision making that makes a good police officer or fireman does not always make a good public saftey diver and that being good at one does not automatically mean being good at the other. A lot of dive training, dive experience and attitude adjustment can be required before a competent dive team member results from an other wise excellent police office or fireman.

Our local dive team members are required to make 12 dives per year and none of these are neccesarily what you would call hard core training dives. Sadly most do not even accomplish this minimal number and all but 5 or 6 are going to come up short of this required amount this year. There are, as always, threats that these people will be removed from the team but like in all the past years, it won't really happen. Not surprisingly, when something really demanding comes up in terms of rescue or recovery, they are not up to the task.

In one really sad example of how badly it can work, the dive team instructor arrived at the site of a cold water drowning and was suited up and ready to go 12 minutes after the victim went under - an excellent response time. However it was then suggested by the fire chief (a heavy hitter on the dive team who has made 3 dives of any type in the last 2 years) ordered him to wait and let someone else go in first as he was always the first diver on scene and in the water and the other guys really needed the experience. There was no one else even remotely ready and the concept the seconds count seems in terms of the ultimate physical recovery of the victim seems to have been lost somewhere. To his credit he went in anyway and immediately found the victim.

 

[ColdH20diving]

divewench, you bring up some valid points. IMO it would be very difficult to share air with an air2, they are not really intended to be the donor reg. To make matters worse you stated they haven't even practiced an OOA drill using the air2. There's no excuse for not training with the equipment you use. The team leader may have 30 years of experience, but his team members may not.

 

[pipedope]

I am not the biggest fan of FFM for SCUBA. The FFM complicates air sharing and most people (not all) will use more gas on FFM than a scuba second stage.

The FFM is very useful for having voice communications. I love using one surface supplied with comms so that when I need something I can simply ask for it. Also this gives a second layer of monitoring as the surface team can hear what I am doing.

Also, many people use the FFM thinking it will help protect them in contaminated water. IT WON"T! For contaminated water you need full protection for water contact. Even a standard helmet is not enough as small amounts of water (usually in tiny droplets) can back up through the exhaust valve. Dual exhaust valves or better exhaust return to the surface are needed.

The bigger problem is how do you have the time and resources to train divers? For rescues you need the fastest response possible. That means the first person on site with gear. I think that most recoveries and evidence searches should be done as commercial dives with all the backups and trained people that entails.

Using the AIR2 and doing vent air and kick up systems works but there are simpler, easier and better ways available today.

 

[narcT]

For safety reasons I consider every dive a "solo". Sometimes when diving with my wife we are not always within easy reach of each other if a reg fails. Its not much fun diving if you have to stay within a few feet of each other.

For this reason we dive with a octo plus a pony bottle with a second reg. She uses a 15cu. and I carry a 30cu. This way if anything goes wrong we can pretty much take care of ourselfs. Yes, carrying 2 second stages on the bc is a little bulking, but we like the peace of mind. When I start tech I'll probably begin carrying a spare mask as well.

IMHO, you should consider every dive a "solo" dive. I have found its not wise to count on others when the chips are down (people do strange things when they panic).

Get a pony bottle and let your boyfriend dive what he's comfortable with...and have fun

 

[bridgediver]

divewench, I'm fairly new to the PSD game myself and it is a frustrating game to say the least but to add my opinons into the fray I must say I've never heard of an air2 being used to backup a FFM. I would be interested to hear of their exact procedures before I speak against it but from what you describe it doesn't sound like the best way to me. We use octos (not necessarily the best way either but I think better than air2's) and most of us practice OOA's and S drills every month. It's true most of the time you're on the end of a line doing a search by yourself but not always, so I believe these skills to be important. I don't want to critisize their team or any individual but your boyfriend should probably take matters into his own hands and practice these skills until he's comfortable - I can't see anyone on his team being opposed to it, it just makes sense.

Backup masks would be recommended but aren't really a necessity. With proper communication and PRACTICE the buddy team can manuver safely with the OOA diver maskless.

As far as your "demand" of your boyfriend to use an octo I hope it didn't really turn into a demand! If he doesn't understand your discomfort then you should dive with someone else (just cause he's your boyfriend doesn't mean you should dive with him). You both have to be comfortable when you dive, I'm sure he would see that too and make a compromise -- the start of many if you're going to stay together. lol.

I also think that the dive leader jumping down your throat is crap! You should ask questions. And don't be intimadated by this bully. Just because you are a newer diver doesn't mean you can't have a discussion about diving with anyone! I think your concerns are valid and your questions appropriate considering you have a significnt other applying these practices. Stick to your guns!

I also wouldn't suggest you dive a solo diver until you've gained alot more experience than you have now. Find some buddies you are comfortable with and practice. Solo diving increases your task loading and stress levels significantly - make sure you're ready for that before abandoning the buddy priciples that you were taught.

mark

 

[MikeFerrara]

I don't have ant PSD qualifications but around here they keep killing divers in training doing things we do and teach all the time without killing any one.

If he's been on the team for two years and hasn't practiced their air sharing procedures at all get him off the team FAST.

I do teach FFM (when I have to) and the AIR 2 thing is insanity in my opinion. I also think that leting all your air out to make an ascent is pure imcompetance especially since most of those guys will be way over weighted anyway.


BTW, I would not even consider diving with some one who has such a botched up configuration.

Some of the people running some of these teams better wake up.

 

[bridgediver]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...
I don't have ant PSD qualifications but around here they keep killing divers in training doing things we do and teach all the time without killing any one.

If he's been on the team for two years and hasn't practiced their air sharing procedures at all get him off the team FAST.

I do teach FFM (when I have to) and the AIR 2 thing is insanity in my opinion. I also think that leting all your air out to make an ascent is pure imcompetance especially since most of those guys will be way over weighted anyway.


BTW, I would not even consider diving with some one who has such a botched up configuration.

Some of the people running some of these teams better wake up.

I agree with you completely Mike... I thought I'd sugar coat my response a bit and then you had to slam the blunt end of the truth right between the eyes!