Vortex Incident

[algulfdiver]

We don't know that the Instructor was having them do Buddy Breathing (I herd Different)
On PADI Standards. The Standards listed are Minimum Standards.

 

[mitsuguy]

We don't know that the Instructor was having them do Buddy Breathing (I herd Different)
On PADI Standards. The Standards listed are Minimum Standards.

that is true, for sure, we are not completely sure if it was true buddy breathing (some mistake alternate air source use for buddy breathing)

however, if an instructor was doing skills that had been purposely removed from the OW course curriculum, that instructor could definitely have a legal issue, should the injured party choose to pursue it...

I suggest a read of this thread for more info on integrating skills that are not requirements: http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/in...or-indicted.html?highlight=university+alabama

that may not work for non-instructors, this should: http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ba...-instructor-faces-charges-merged-threads.html

 

[jhayes75]

Does anyone have an update on the divers status?

 

[Dive-aholic]

so, I wonder if this is true (or if it was an alternate air source exercise, or something completely unrelated), as PADI has removed buddy breathing from all text, skill evaluations and everything related to it... Then, that begs the question, was it a PADI class or other organization... I know this is somewhat assumption / speculation, but IF it was a true buddy breathing incident and IF it was a PADI instructor doing it, he could be in a little trouble...

While it's true that PADI has removed Buddy Breathing, that standards change does not go into effect until June 2010...per the training bulletin...

maybe there was a bleb that caused part of the lung to have an overexpansion injury? And the damage necessitated removal of that part of lung tissue? (just speculating here)

Damage caused by overexpansion does not require a lobectomy. There are certain disease processes that would, but not trauma. Chest tube it and wait for it to heal.

I'm all for teaching "more than the minimum" but some old practices need to go away.

When it was still taught, and you could assume that everybody knew how to do it, it was a reasonable option. Now that everybody has (or should have) and alternate second stage and BB hasn't been widely taught in the last 20 years or so, attempting it will likely result in panic or least one drowning.

In fact, the reason it was discontinued is because the OOA diver wasn't always so keen on giving back the working regulator to the donor.

Terry

Buddy breathing is a very reasonable skill to have. Never mind the fact that it's still a required skill in decompression courses. Let's look at the reasons why it's a good idea for recreational divers...

Many new divers are going to initially rent their gear. Rental gear isn't always the best gear available and isn't serviced as often as it should be. Most recreational divers don't bother test breathing their octos simply because they aren't taught to by most instructors. Should an OOA incident occur, they are not going to be presented with having to breathe that octo for the first time. If it even works there's a good chance that it may breathe wet. Now that panicked diver is going to grab the primary reg out of his buddy's mouth. Also, most rental gear doesn't have the fancy clips to keep everything tucked in close and streamlined so there's also a good chance that those octos may be dragging in the sand contributing to the likelihood that it won't work effectively when needed.

Wow! Requiring people to purchase dive insurance? Why not require everyone to carry a 19cf pony bottle? Wouldn't it be more productive to actually require someone to pass a swim test before certifying them as divers? or a stress test for that matter? How useful is that insurance if you have a heart attack at 80ft? I mean sure, your next of kin gets a check for 10 grand, but how does it make you a competent diver?

Dive insurance is cheap. The best policy out there cost less than $90/year. Why not carry it?? I require all of my tech and cave students to carry dive insurance. And swim tests are required for all OW courses.

IMHO he shouldn't have been buddy breathing with a student. He is a certified diver and even though he was being re-certed, is entitled to do what he wants, his daughter is a student. If her OWSI wanted to teach her to buddy breath, then he should have been the one doing it with her, not her NON-INSTRUCTOR father.

I completely agree with this. I teach buddy breathing in OW but I buddy up with my students for this exercise so I can better evaluate their comfort level with this skill.

Call me an insensitive meanie, but their OWSI had no business letting a student partner up with anyone other than himself or another professional for something as potentially dangerous as a buddy breathing ascent in this day and age when octopi are universally available.

I don't agree with this. Once I have evaluated both divers, I want to see them do the skill. While alternate regs are universally available, they aren't necessarily universally in working order (see my comments above).

But I do know that, when we have people on ventilators and the peak pressure being applied by the vent gets up to 40 torr, we start worrying a lot about pneumothorax.

At 100, the lungs will definitely blow. I knew a nurse years ago who thought she knew vents well enough to change the settings on one...

 

[Hetland]

Swim tests are required for all OW courses.

I thought I read a few years ago that swim tests were optional with some agencies? I thought this was very strange, but perhaps I misunderstood what I was reading....

Dive insurance is cheap. The best policy out there cost less than $90/year. Why not carry it?? I require all of my tech and cave students to carry dive insurance.

I agree it's a good idea, and have it myself. My problem is a shop or instructor requiring someone to have it. I'm not required to buy a kevlar vest when I purchase a firearm, or wear one when I complete a firearms safety course. Do you require your students to have health insurance before they participate in a course as well? Seems like ear injuries are the most frequent of dive injuries, so why not head things off at the pass and make sure they can afford the ENT visit? I understand the justification, I just don't agree with it.

 

[Dive-aholic]

Technical and cave courses come with a much higher risk level. We are intentionally going into an overhead, whether real or virtual. While I have been fortunate to have never had to see the inside of a chamber, I realize that the diving I do increases the chance of this happening. If potential students don't agree with having dive insurance, then they are free to find an instructor that doesn't require it. Although they will have a difficult time doing that. I don't know many tech/cave instructors that don't.

 

[KY_BOB]

We are taught about the different type of Low on Air/Out of Air Ascents in O/W Class.
Low on Air/Out of Air Ascents (order of priority, Least Dangerous to Most Dangerous)
1. Normal Ascent
2. Alt. Air Source Ascent
3. Controlled Emergency Ascent
4. Buddy Breathing Ascent
5. Buoyant Emergency Ascent

I think this incident highlights why #4 is so dangerous. I know that everyone does #1,2 &3 on Open Water check out dives. Most instructors do 4 & 5 in the Pool Only and do #5 in Open Water, only at the surface. Primary reason because of the danger (I could be wrong, but I believe that it is possible to have a lung over-expansion injury in 6ft on water) involved.

My question is this, How many instructors do #'s 4 & 5 in 20'- 25' of Open Water?

I'm not an instructor but 2 years ago I did all 5 from a 20' platform during the checkout dives. I was very closely supervised but I did them all in OW.

 

[Whyphysco]

Buddy breathing is a very reasonable skill to have. Never mind the fact that it's still a required skill in decompression courses. Let's look at the reasons why it's a good idea for recreational divers...

Many new divers are going to initially rent their gear. Rental gear isn't always the best gear available and isn't serviced as often as it should be. Most recreational divers don't bother test breathing their octos simply because they aren't taught to by most instructors. Should an OOA incident occur, they are not going to be presented with having to breathe that octo for the first time. If it even works there's a good chance that it may breathe wet. Now that panicked diver is going to grab the primary reg out of his buddy's mouth. Also, most rental gear doesn't have the fancy clips to keep everything tucked in close and streamlined so there's also a good chance that those octos may be dragging in the sand contributing to the likelihood that it won't work effectively when needed.

This is something that i'm not quite understanding. I agree that buddy breathing is a good skill to have, i don't teach this skill to OW students untill their advance class.

But what is being said here is that its a good skill to have if:

1. The dive instructor isn't teaching the diver correct, i.e. Checking all gear before getting in the water.

2. The shop not renting out good working gear and not servicing gear.

3. Having a buddy who does not know how to clear a regualtor, which even if he grabs the reg out of your mouth that one is still going to be wet.

So we are assuming that most dive shops have deralict equipment, insturctors are not instructing correctly, and divers are not compitent to do basic skill (i.e. clearing regulator)

I think this was an unfortunate accident, nothing wrong with teaching buddy breathing, but it isn't something that this required for a basic diver anymore just because it takes so many things to go wrong before it would be used, mainly the biggest cardnial sin i think there is in diving, Running Out Of Air! So i think as long as students get their gear service and maintain it correctly, inspect their gear every time they use it, and can clear a regualtor (All things taught an emphisized in any OW class) then buddy breathing should not be a forseeable thing to need. Plus the fact that if you are not diving with someone that you practied buddy breathing with, they probably won't be cofortable and panic anyway, does anyone go over buddy breathing with their buddy before they hope off the boat?

 

[Dive-aholic]

That's not what I'm saying at all. When was the last time you went to a tropical location and took a look at the rental equipment? When was the last time you saw insta-buddies being paired up at a resort? I'm not referring to local shops with quarry diving. I'm talking about vacation destinations as far as the crappy gear. And, yes, I'm stating there is crappy instruction going on. How many instructors do you know that have their students wet check their regs? I wasn't taught that until my cavern course. But I do teach it to all of my students, including OW.

 

[SuPrBuGmAn]

however, if an instructor was doing skills that had been purposely removed from the OW course curriculum, that instructor could definitely have a legal issue, should the injured party choose to pursue it...

I suggest a read of this thread for more info on integrating skills that are not requirements: http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/in...or-indicted.html?highlight=university+alabama

that may not work for non-instructors, this should: http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ba...-instructor-faces-charges-merged-threads.html

Thank God there are still instructors that will risk "litigation" in order to best serve their students.