We don't need no education....

[Thalassamania]

I've written more Codes of Practice for more different groups than probably anyone that you'll ever meet, ranging from Earthwatch to UNESCO, from the University of the Philippines to the American Academy of Underwater Sciences, and I can tell you that there are good and bad COPs. Having read the Queensland COP, my frank opinion is that it is rather poorly put together and is little more than a hash made from the standards and practices manual of the very entities that brought you the problem in the first place. More importantly the underlying weakness of those entities are not addressed but simply permitted to slide on through in such a way that they actually become worse, as those weakness are melded into an official paradigm. All the COP really does is provide liability cover and economic protection for what appear to be the self-serving BS artists that are working hard to guarantee that you well never become, and you will never see, another Val Taylor, unless they find a way first to capture a piece of the action. I assure you that I will never dive in Queensland as anything but a visiting scientist and I strongly suspect that most discerning divers will, if only after one trip, come to a similar conclusion. I don't suspect that will be a problem for the Japanese clientele, or the Chinese clientele, but that's going to be the Australian dive biz if it keeps going the way that you think it will. Too bad.

 

[marinediva]

wow,
Are those trumpets I hear. Love a man who can blow a good trumpet. You are most probably correct, I will never meet someone who has written more COP than yourself. **** it is obvious that I should at the least be honored to discuss this with you, I AM> but life being what it is the process goes like this,

Here, every stakeholder has a chance to have input into the code. Its actually very democratic.
The pen pushers and their academic collegues from the Govt, plus members of the Dive Council of Queensland being manufactures, dive operators, industry agencies and associations, all get together and mediate. They even get stakeholders from other states to attend these mediation rounds. Then it goes to PUBLIC consultation. Everyone, all stakeholders can have a say.

Oh course we all know what happens then, all those nannie bashers can't pull themselves away from the slap ya mate on the back festival, and are as useful as **** on a bull.

You know my thoughts are, why no stop putting it down and help improve it the way you think it should be. This is your chance to shine, in the sunny state of Qld, and it appears the rest of Aust as well. Actually I am wrong, it is no longer the sunny state, Qlder's are now living in the smart state, or so the number plates say. (cmon guys just handed you a wonderful sharpe knife with that one).lol

From what I am reading, are you truly trying to give the impression that no one but yourself could possibly have the experience to make a COP that would be as good as yours. Because it comes across like young boys trying to compare uuummm body parts.

Bottom line, it is not about you, it is about the 1.2 million fellow austs and dive tourists that dive the shores of Qld with a dive company, and their lives.

Be it that they may not be discerning, it probably is all they are aware of. They are probably just the average diver, and on that count I actually agree with you. I personally think WA is a far nicer and untouched place to dive. Reminds me of the GBR twenty years ago. Or even spending an extra $400 bucks and going to PNG which is more exciting. Jees at least there you get the odd armed hold up or car hijacking free of charge.

So as long as the marketing does its part, and they continue to flock to Qld at least you, I and all the other free thinking divers with opinions, will be able to continue diving in tourist free zones.

 

[Kern]

Quote:
Question.......If it was thriving, then why did they not spend the dollars and align themselves to
the code. Have you really looked at it...... Which part do you consider nanny state crap, especially since it is so similar to NSW. From what I am understand the MAJOR differences is not infact in the code of Practice, and how a tech operation operates per sa, but more about the differences in reference to dive boats in survey and licences.

I will endeavor to gather the statistics however to offer proof.

No it's simpler than that. Qld. no longer recognises that in diving the worst can happen, for no apparent reason while diving within the the schedule of your dive you may die. As such someone always has to be to blame & fines & prison terms must be levied. In tech diving sometimes death happens. Go through a couple of the which hunts that follow & you might want to get out too.

 

[Thalassamania]

The process sounds very democratic, but just look at the result, its so hobbled and unclear that even after hours of study you did not know what it meant in specific and general areas.

There are lots of people who can write good COPs and I've been involved in writing some that I think are bad, but hopefully I learned from that. Writing a good COP requires more than just circling the stakeholders, it often requires not being overly responsive to the stakeholders, who like the folks who settled America, often see their stakeholder status, not a part of a sacred trust, but as their God-given right to carve a new life ... out of the American Indian.

I learned an important lesson from the second major COP that I worked on, it was clearly flawed, we were all anxious to catch our planes, and we accepted a document that most knew was poor, but that we thought we could fix later. It's now almost thirty years later, we've made dozens of runs at it, but because no one is willing to say, "no damn good, let's go to a clean sheet of paper," we make changes every year that simply don't ever seem to fix the problems.

Calling me names doesn't really get anyone anywhere ... I've been around long enough that it rolls of my back and the people here who know me don't take it seriously either, so why should I? If a few piddling footnotes from my C.V. sounds to you like a brass solo, I'd humbly suggest that it might have less to do with the footnotes than it does with what you might be comparing them to.

 

[Kern]

Well, I'm off to Sydney for a week to dive some wrecks. Long term weather report looks quite promising.

Have fun.

 

[DaleC]

God bless you Marinediva, you sound so earnest about the subject and I respect that so don't take it personally but this sentence caught my attention:

It is interesting fact that the no. of operators who were in the industry before the Govt stepped in was nearly double. Making the C of P mandatory weeded out the bad operators.

Could it possibly be that over legislating did not weed out the bad operators but rather the ones that did not want the yoke of the nanny state hung about their shoulders? It would seem to me that there are many people who take up diving because they love the independance and freedom it allows them. In a world where our existance is often regulated and meted out in safe dribs and drabs the open water offers an arena where "adventure" can still happen. Some people actually want that. Adventure. It seems the industry in your area has quashed this aspect of diving in order to cater to the lowest common denominator. You seem to be comfortable with the status quo but perhaps others are bothered that they are saddled with rules meant for divers who have less motivation and self discipline than them. It seems sad to me that "in the name of safety" your govenment would sap the very essence of adventure from you. The divers in your area will only trod ground that has already been trodden.

We are often thought of as socialistic nanny staters up here in Canada but when I read about the many issues of control faced by divers in other locals I feel grateful that I can dive where I want, the way I want (for the most part) and my government (Quebec notwithstanding) still feels I'm big enough to be responsible for my own welfare. It's funny but, given that freedom, I tend to try to live up to that responsability.

Perhaps your government should have gotten rid of the tourists who aren't responsible instead of hamstringing the divers that are. But then again, I suppose your dive operators wouldn't have gone for that solution as it affects their bottom line. In this way I see how regulation serves them as they can continue to provide services to the more prolific, but less competent, diver.

 

[marinediva]

Okay last reply for awhile as I to am off to Qld for a couple of dives on the Brisbane and Coffs on the way home.

The process sounds very democratic, but just look at the result, its so hobbled and unclear that even after hours of study you did not know what it meant in specific and general areas.


That is a matter of opinion, and like you previously stated, opinions are like indigestion.

In regards to calling you names, arh, don't think so. I did infer you were blowing your own trumpet. Agree calling people names is very childish.

Dale, have always enjoyed your style,
and yes I agree what you have stated is very relevant.

So lets go back to the beginning.

My involvement in this thread was because I stated that the COP was mandatory. Some other Aussies disagreed. I had stated that the certs are good for education, and that dive operators require them or proof of experience before diving certain dives.

This afternoon I spent time reading some interesting posts on an Oz web-site regarding the WH &S COP. Whilst I believe on face value it is a good thing, I can also start to see things are not all kosher in the land of ID.

My interest in this is to gain knowledge and understanding. My ambition is to train disadvantaged indigenous youth in scuba, both here and in PNG. I actually believe it is character building and help to motivate and focus youth in a clear path. Rather than just believe others, I am studying courses to enable to be self reliant and OH & S officer is the next course on the list.

I am indeed a fortunate diver that I have access to my own transport in Sth Qld, as well as NSW,
and continue to do shore solo dives as well as club dive boats and the kayak. It has been some years since I used a charter, except for the HMAS Brisbane.

In the mean time since being involved in this thread and reading other material, I have decided to
make my own submissions to the public consultation. I don't see the point in complaining or just accepting but rather would like to be proactive and maybe just maybe, enough people can make a difference.

 

[MatthewMetcalfe]

I've got a stack of the certification cards and here's my take on it:

Sure, you could load it all into an Open Water Course and extend the length of it but not all people are interested in it. So they (and not just PADI) offer the specialties.

Here's a couple I've seen mentioned that I have and what I got out of the training:


Underwater Photography - I had NO interest in doing this when I learned to dive. I had enough to deal with in the equipment not to lug a Camera around. Underwater photography is significantly different than standard photography. It was interesting learning but I'm sure I could have done it on my own.

Deep Diving - I guess you could go down to 130' and work math problems to see how the brain is affected but I don't think it's an open water type of thing. Could you do it on your own? That's a personal preference that the diver has to make.

Nitrox - The most important thing from the Nitrox course was Oxygen Toxicity and how to avoid it. 5 minutes in an advanced course? I think that's an underestimation. I could certainly see it covered in the advanced course though.

On the Advanced course I found that it was really more like going out and diving with a light introduction to each subject. Perhaps a more thorough and more rigid Advanced course that covered the information in the specialties would be a better option.

That's just how I look at it though.

 

[fnfalman]

I like the multiple certs. My PADI Master Scuba Diver card had help landed so many chicks at the bar, it ain't even funny. That's one way of justifying nearly $1000 US spent on getting those certs.

 

[SubMariner]

This still sounds like education to me.It just was for free.

Exactly!!!!

And sometimes the "friends" don't really understand what they are doing. Worse yet you pick up all their bad habits. :shocked2: