We don't need no education....

[Thalassamania]

OK, read it over.

I suspect that the information presented to you in the class itself, was slanted and thus incorrect. That makes it really hard for you, still at a stage in you life where you lack healthy cynicism and believe the "authorities." That was why I asked for the links to the actual documents.

So, we're gotten that straightened out, yes? The lesson here, for you, is don't believe everything you read, or hear, especially when it comes in a dive instructor related class ... 90% of which is horse pucky passed on to the candidate by an Officious Dufus, who learned it from another Officious Dufus, and so on and so forth, up the pyramid scheme to the top, where there sits, the Most Officious Dufus who also never actually read the documents and/or never actually did the dive.

As far as the question of "education" is concerned: I doubt that there is anyone here who does not respect quality diving education. But those of us who've been around long enough to have had the Taylors as dive buddies rather than on our wall know the rather stark limitations of the current system of diver training, especially at the lower levels and the "Pro" courses. Consider for a moment, if current training of divers and "Pros" was truly adequate ... would there be any need for mandatory Standards of Practice? Of course not! I've run diving safety programs for most of my adult life, and I've had this guiding principal: "A properly trained diver does not need regulations because he or she has internalized all those things needed to minimize the risks. No diver has ever been rescued by a regulation, it is his or her skill and knowledge that prevents small issues from snowballing into much larger ones."

 

[marinediva]

OK, read it over.

I suspect that the information presented to you in the class itself, was slanted and thus incorrect.

Which information is incorrect?

 

[Thalassamania]

Just off the top my head: the idea that there was a mandated SOP everywhere and that you need to have a wreck card to dive on a wreck.

 

[marinediva]

After reading your posts T, I decided to ring a couple of dive operators, and just clarify my thoughts and beliefs. They also agree that the legislation, is infact law, and mandatory, for the state of QLD.
Within it, 'the code of practice' is some flexibility. One suggested it comes back to conditions, the site itself, and the diver, all provisions contained within the C of P.

They take people on the HMAS Brisbane which is in 30m of H2o. The bow rests at 18m.
The principal of the business suggested the following in regards to wreck cert.

They have two dives on that boat. If someone was to come along and only had OW they would assess the diver in the first dive. Their first dive only ever does an orientation of the wreck. During that dive the instructor would be looking at the divers skills and seeing how comfortable they were in the water. If all was okay, that diver would join a group being lead by an instructor and again, depending on conditions would/could make a penetration on the next dive.

He did say that there had been a number of divers that have only OW but their logs show dives deep and other wrecks, so that is taken into account. It was stated that these are within the guidelines of the C of P, and that there would be other dive sites where a deep cert would be
necessary.

He further suggested that unless the diver did have a wreck cert, they would have to be with a guide (which they ensure is an instructor) during a penetration. If the diver did have a wreck cert
and did check out ok during the first orientation dive that diver would be free to do their own diving away from a guided group.

Yongala, require a deep cert, and if a diver does not have that cert, they like the HMAS BRisbane use the first dive to bring the diver up to standard.
They also suggested that WH & S is legislation, and thereby LAW, and mandatory in the state of QLD.

Referencing back to the Nitrox. If a diver turned up with a Nitrox tank and no certification, that diver would not be allowed to use the tank.

I discussed our debate with him and he informed me that these laws were only enforced after the Lonegans went missing. Prior to that, the industry had been self regulated, and that guidelines had been in place but a decision was made by the Govt, that the industry was unable to self regulate. It is interesting fact that the no. of operators who were in the industry before the Govt stepped in was nearly double. Making the C of P mandatory weeded out the bad operators.
This happened in early 2000.

He also informed me that other states of Aust, are looking at Qld and by the end of the decade their legislation will reflect Qld's. 80% of Australian diving happens in Nth Qld. and the current level of fatalities reflects the impact this legislation has had. It will not be long before all states have the same regulations and practices across the board.

I am more than willing to offer the email address of the operator in Brisbane and Townsville should you wish to clarify it further, yourself. Feel free to PM me for email.

One other point, I was not learning about this legislation for the Dive Industry, I was/am doing a cert 4 Training & Assessment so I can teach/train EFR and Hospitality, it is unfortunate but it is now a requirement to have that certificate before one can teach accredited courses in Aust.
There are also 'rumors' that diving Instructors will also require that certification before they can train divers before to long. But that is another subject.

 

[Thalassamania]

With all due respect ... who gives a FF what operators hold as an opinion on a matter of law?

I don't know about Australia, but everywhere else that I've been, in terms of actual knowledge, they rank only slightly ahead of "diving Professionals" and in terms of self serving interpretations they go straight to the head of the class. I do know how to read, and I am fairly adept at understanding what is written.

I love the idea that some set of rules is going to make a bad situation better. Sorry, but it doesn't work that way unless that same set of rules removes the incompetent divers and the incompetent instructors ... which your COPs do not appear to do. In my opinion it is all rather a waste of time since all it really does it put the foxes legally in charge of the hen house.

 

[Elkfriend]

I would like to see an optional cert for solo divers!

 

[Kern]

They take people on the HMAS Brisbane which is in 30m of H2o. The bow rests at 18m.
The principal of the business suggested the following in regards to wreck cert.

They have two dives on that boat. If someone was to come along and only had OW they would assess the diver in the first dive. Their first dive only ever does an orientation of the wreck. During that dive the instructor would be looking at the divers skills and seeing how comfortable they were in the water. If all was okay, that diver would join a group being lead by an instructor and again, depending on conditions would/could make a penetration on the next dive.

He did say that there had been a number of divers that have only OW but their logs show dives deep and other wrecks, so that is taken into account. It was stated that these are within the guidelines of the C of P, and that there would be other dive sites where a deep cert would be
necessary.

He further suggested that unless the diver did have a wreck cert, they would have to be with a guide (which they ensure is an instructor) during a penetration. If the diver did have a wreck cert
and did check out ok during the first orientation dive that diver would be free to do their own diving away from a guided group.

The last time I dived the Ex HMAS Brisbane was probably the last time I'll dive in Qld. The DN (dive nazi) noticed 1 of our group was a left hander & that, horror of horrors, his weight belt was set for a left hand release. He was forced to change it to right hand release or he wouldn't be allowed to dive. It was the law, apparently. As the sinistral devil had never used anything but a left hand release, in an emergency, where he would have had to overcome a lifetime of muscle memory I would consider this to be a stupidly dangerous thing to enforce.

As to Instructors leading the dive & evaluating skills, no just a DN & when we hit the wreck it was a star burst of divers to get away from him. Nothing was ever said about this flagrant disregard for the law. Every other dive was just done in buddy groups, the DN didn't hit the water for the next 3 days diving. Maybe we were using a different operator with a different interpretation of the law.

The ex HMAS Brisbane as wreck; no just a sanitised dive attraction. IIRC just 2 very short corridors where there wasn't a gapping hole to exit through just a few metres away..

I discussed our debate with him and he informed me that these laws were only enforced after the Lonegans went missing. Prior to that, the industry had been self regulated, and that guidelines had been in place but a decision was made by the Govt, that the industry was unable to self regulate. It is interesting fact that the no. of operators who were in the industry before the Govt stepped in was nearly double. Making the C of P mandatory weeded out the bad operators.
This happened in early 2000.

A bold assertion, can I have some proof please. It certainly bought an end to a once thriving tech diving industry in Sth. QLD. as 1 by 1 the operators got tired of the nanny state crap.

He also informed me that other states of Aust, are looking at Qld and by the end of the decade their legislation will reflect Qld's. 80% of Australian diving happens in Nth Qld. and the current level of fatalities reflects the impact this legislation has had. It will not be long before all states have the same regulations and practices across the board.

)

Can't see this happening by the end of next year in NSW or Victoria or Tasmania or WA or SA. With any luck it just won't happen, period.

Are you suggesting that there have been no divers go missing or died in Qld since 2000. Or are you saying that it's been a common outcome in the other states in this period.

 

[Kern]

I would like to see an optional cert for solo divers!

They already exist, you can even dive solo in QLD. if you have 1.

 

[marinediva]

Since the dive operators are the ones who are investing the money and running a business any reasonable person would expect they actually know a lot, especially concerning the very law that covers their industry.

I doubt there are many industries which are not self serving in business, even Govt's often use law as money raising exercises.

I love the idea that some set of rules is going to make a bad situation better. Sorry, but it doesn't work that way unless that same set of rules removes the incompetent divers and the incompetent instructors ...

In most circumstances I would agree with you. In this instance it appears it did make a bad situation better. Prior to 2000 the number of dive related incidents were high, especially involving people from non-english speaking countries. This has changed. You are correct it does not address the incompetent divers or instructors, but what it has done is reduced the risk of
people lying and misrepresenting themselves as divers.

Opinions are a sign of a thinking and caring mind.
Thanks for the discussion.

 

[marinediva]

Can't see this happening by the end of next year in NSW or Victoria or Tasmania or WA or SA. With any luck it just won't happen, period. [/I]

Suggest you look at a copy of the Vic code of Practice and see the references to the Qld code.
Has already started. State Govts are wanting to develop one code of practice.