What are good BC's?

[TSandM]

I think it's quite sad that a simple thread from a new diver, asking about good BCs, has ended up in a catfight between two of SB's most venerable and valuable posters. Can we get back to the simple question the guy originally asked?

Good BCs . . . It's a matter of opinion. Some things are bad design -- A friend bought a BC used that had such a peculiar way of securing the integrated weight pockets that it was basically not possible to make them secure, and he lost them repeatedly. That's bad design, but it's fairly uncommon. Some things are viewed as bad design because the person writing the post doesn't like the idea. I don't like the lever-activated BCs. It's way too complicated, unnecessary, and looks like bad design to me, but some people who use them love them.

What's really important is that the BC you buy fit you well, keep the tank stable on your back, fill and vent easily, and if it includes an integrated weight system, keeps the weights securely fastened to you until you WANT to ditch them, and then makes that easy to do. Be aware that, when you try a BC on in a shop, you are getting only a very rough idea of fit, because you will not be walking around upright with gravity pulling down to the same degree when you are underwater. Things which seem quite stable on land can end up being sloppy and uncomfortable in the water. Also be aware that bells and whistles that seem quite attractive before you dive the BC can prove to be less than useful in the long run. This is true, for example, of many pockets on BCs, which turn out to be too small to hold anything much, or difficult to access while diving.

What fascinates me is that there seems to be a fairly common evolution in BCs, at least among those people who ever replace what they originally bought. That evolution is from jacket to back inflate to BP/W. You may want to go look at the "What did you buy that you regret?" thread for some stories.

 

[diver 85]

Dang, you 2 need to meet someplace @ a neutral site & get this thingy settled----once & for all........My suggestion, somewhere in central US ???maybe St. Louie and taped fist---none of this glovey crap for whimps............

 

[foles1972]

Hey Brandnew -- welcome to diving!

You may want to consider a back plate/wings type BC. When I started diving a couple years ago I bought a SeaQuest Balance BC. It was a great BC initially but I outgrew it quickly. I took an AOW course and started doing some more advanced type dives. I ended up replacing it about a year after I bought it.

A BP/W can grow with as you gain experience. You can add a backplate if you want to dive doubles; they have some extra D-rings for some extra gear (pony bottles, back-up lights, lift bags, catch bags etc.); extra lift capacity etc. It may cost a little more initially but you won't be buying a BC only to end up wanting to replace it in a year or two. But remember...it all depends what type of diving you want to get into!

Some good brands are OMS, Apeks, and Dive Rite. You can even mix one brand of wing with another brand harness to meet your specific tastes or needs. For example I use an OMS banded bladder on an Apeks harness. (And I absolutely love diving with it!)

Like I mentioned before...it depends on what you want to get into.

 

[Zieg]

Trust me, if I could avoid interacting with Walter I would. I count to ten before I respond to any of Walter's posts. I will not however let what I consider to be mis information being offered to an admitted newbie. What I object to is personal opinion being presented as fact.

You can avoid interacting with Walter, ignore him. He did not give any 'mis information' in his post, just because your opinion did not agree with his does not make any of his information any less factual.

Please read what I've written. You are misrepresenting my position.

I have never said that it was impossible to use doubles with anything but a BP&W.
In post #10 I said

I never said it was impossible. Anecdotal reports from a single user is not evidence of common usage. Any casual poll of divers using doubles will reveal the majority are using a plate and wing.

Walter claims that the wide spread use of BP&W's is a direct result of some myth. See here.

This was the part that got to me the first time. I'll say it one more time.
Walter never said "the wide spread use of BP&W's is a direct result of some myth." That is just you making up your own words. The myth is that bp/w's are the only way to dive doubles. If you haven't gotten straight by now, well I guess you don't know diving gear as much as you think.

Walter's exact quote:

Common myths:

Back inflate and BP/wings push you face down in the water (it's just not so and no BC is designed to float an unconscious person face up).

You can only use doubles with a BP/wing (you can wear doubles with any BC as long as the BC has enough lift).

I don't think that it can be made any more clear.

Try not to loose sight of the purpose of this thread. We have a new sport diver asking about BC's. Would you suggest that doubles + horse collar would be a good way for a new diver to start out?

Never said that. Just showing that many others use other gear besides bp/w's. But you know, there is nothing wrong with a horsecollar.

How long do you wish to beat this dead horse? I have already agreed with Walter that not every OPV is in fact a "rear dump" in this exchange.

Then let it go.

That still does not invalidate my reference to an OPV as a rear dump. These terms are used interchangeably with regard to wings. Believe or not some people don't know what "OPV" means, but they do know what dump valve is. Remember I talk to divers much like the OP in this thread every day. It's what I do for a living.

Guess you can't let it go.

If you consider a crotch strap unnecessary, as you have stated above, why do you choose to use plates and harnesses that include a crotch strap?

See, you got it wrong again. If you really read what I wrote, you will have noticed that I also stated that I also use a jacket.

Can you detail for me the advantages and disadvantages of multiple dump valves, and the advantages and disadvantages of dump valves located at the top of a BC?

Never went there, the multiple dump valve thing is your problem.

If you haven't gotten straight by now, well, I guess you never will. But let me say this, get over this thing with Walter. If you really do have to count to ten before responding to one of his posts, weeeeelllll, you've got bigger problems. I think it's time to let this thread go. We've gotton off topic and the OP is probably wondering what happened to his simple question. Personally, I love the ScubaPro Classic, took alot of diving to wear out the last one.

 

[Stu S.]

World-wide advice may not be the way to go on this.

BC choice is often determined by your locale. A caver will want something that will not get them caught in a tight spot, and the metal plate and wing set is often their choice. A drift diver like me often chooses a jacket, as it rides a diver high on the surface in rough seas. Going to travel? You can get a lightweight BC that will pack easy and be a tropical treat.

Check on what the experienced divers (not salesmen) in your area are using and seek local advice on this purchase.

Stu.

 

[ZenDiver.3D]

Every person here has their preferred type of BC, and each one thinks theirs is the best way. I prefer my Zeagle Ranger. Is it the best? Yes, for me. Maybe not for you. So, go dive. Try some rental styles out at different shops in their pools. See what fits for you.
Watch out for those who scream and stomp to make their points the only right ones. most are not objective, like maybe they own a shop that sells BP/W and DIR exclusively, or those who refuse to even stock BPs.
And wether or not you like Walter, he is usually right. You may not like the way he says it, but it's usually on target.
OP, sift through. Make sure the BC you choose makes you comfortable. If you are recreational, don't sweat it if it doesn't have a crotch-strap. Check for safety and quality.

 

[marchand]

I'm new to diving and trying to figure out what is worth buying and what would be a waste of money. (not to mention I like difficult questions)

I'm wondering what would be a good BC that I would not have to replace soon. The local dive shop reconmended the latitude XLT, although I like it overall the plastic D-rings concern me. Unfortantly all he carries are Agualung BC's which leaves me wondering how high quality are Agualung BC's, and what other brands are there? I semi close shop carries scubapro products. What would you guys recomend for a new diver who doesn't have a lot of money and defintily doesn't want to replace a several hundred dollar peice of equipment soon after buying it.

Trying to figure out what is a good quality BC that doesn't have a lot of extra stuff that is not needed an only drives the price up.

Thank you

Ernest

If that last statement is what is most important in your search for a BC I would suggest getting a backplate and wing. The beauty of the BP/W is that it can be as minimalist or as excessive as you want, and they about the cheapest way to get a BC there is. You can get a used AL plate for $40 or new for $65 and a used SS plate for as little as $60 if you are patient or new for $120. A harness will run you maybe $20 if you want a lot of d-rings, and you can get a new wing for $250-$400ish. All said and done you can get a very nice BC that can grow with you for ~$400 if you go the new route. Whats really nice is if you out on too much weight all you have to do is buy 15-20' of 2" webbing for the new harness and your BC fits again.

 

[cool_hardware52]

You can avoid interacting with Walter, ignore him. He did not give any 'mis information' in his post, just because your opinion did not agree with his does not make any of his information any less factual.

(you can wear doubles with any BC as long as the BC has enough lift)

This is untrue. Making such blanket proclamations is a disservice to the new diver.

Lift capacity alone does not determine is a BC is suitable for use with doubles.

Many jacket BC's have no provision to secure doubles. If all you have is one camband weaved through a fabric BC how do you propose mounting a set of doubles to such a jacket?

Some Jacket BC's have a bladder shaped in such way that doubles would imped the ability of the bladder to inflate.

Some Jackets are also lightly constructed. Loading them with ~100 lbs of tanks would be unwise.

It is misleading to suggest that with sufficient lift any jacket is suitable for doubles.

It is exactly this type of misinformation that leads new divers to buy huge capacity jacket bc's because they think they might want to dive doubles some day.

This was the part that got to me the first time. I'll say it one more time.
Walter never said "the wide spread use of BP&W's is a direct result of some myth."

Yes, in fact he said exactly that.

One more time. Look at what Walter actually wrote.

Such a survey won't reveal just a majority, but a vast majority, due to a large degree to the myth that a BP/wing is the only possible way to dive doubles.

What do you think the words "due to" mean? Do I need to diagram this sentence for you? Walter is clearly saying that a "myth" is largely responsible for the wide spread use of BP&W's by doubles divers.

If you can tease some other meaning from that quote you should be doing spin control for national political candidates.

See, you got it wrong again. If you really read what I wrote, you will have noticed that I also stated that I also use a jacket.

I did read what you wrote. You use a jacket and a Backplate and Wing with a crotch strap. You have again dodged my question as to why you choose to use, for at least a portion of your diving, a Plate with Harness and crotch strap.

Let's try again. If a Jacket is sufficient why bother with a BP&W?

Tobin

 

[marchand]

All styles of BC have excellent models and poor models. Some prefer a vest, others prefer back inflate, some love BP/wing while a rare few won't give up their horse collars. All of the styles work quite well IF they are well designed. If they are poorly designed (quite common) they don't work nearly as well. I've used all styles of BCs. I've found excellent BCs in them all and poor ones in them all.

Two advantages of the BP/wing are: 1. you can fit it exactly to you regardless of your size and how are you are to fit. You can also change wings if you move to large doubles and need more lift.

Common myths:

Back inflate and BP/wings push you face down in the water (it's just not so and no BC is designed to float an unconscious person face up).

You can only use doubles with a BP/wing (you can wear doubles with any BC as long as the BC has enough lift).

I'm much more concerned about how well a BC is designed than which particular style it may be.

Things to look for in a BC:

1. Dump valve at the highest point of the BC. - Inflate the BC and hold it up as if you were wearing it at the surface. Is the dump valve at the highest point? If not, look for a different BC. If it is, turn it as if you were swimming in a prone position. Is there a dump valve at the highest point? A good BC will pass both tests. If the dump valve is not at the highest point, it will trap air, requiring contortions to dump all the air or additional lead. A nice extra is a right shoulder dump valve and dump valves at the bottom. Some very popular BCs fail this test.

2. No padding - Padding requires additional weight, yet compresses at depth so it no longer cushions. Additionally, air in a BC lifts the BCs weight off your back rendering padding redundant. Padding also increases drag, making dives in current more difficult and increasing your air consumption.

3. No cummerbund - Cummerbunds increase drag.

4. No fabric covering of the bladder. - These BCs are sometimes called "bladderless" or "single bladder BCs." The fabric covering creates drag in current.

Of these 4 points, the first is critical, the others are nice to have.

The Scubapro Classic Sport passes all these tests. Most other Scubapro BCs pass the first and fourth, but not the second and third. I'm not familiar with the latitude XLT.

Walter, I would have to disagree with some of the things you stated in this post.

First, the parenthetical after the second myth is not true. I can take a Zeagle escape and put a bladder from the Ranger on it and still not be able to use doubles even though I have plenty of lift. This is because the Escape was not designed to accept doubles ie. there is no way to attach them to the BC. A BC has to be designed to accept doubles and have enough lift.

Next is your first search criteria. Since we are trying to help a novice diver make a informed decision. I think it unwise to suggest having a dump valve at the highest point while in the swimming position and while floating on the surface. There are two reasons for this: the power inflater (given the normal novice position and a well trimmed position is always at the highest point; and although another dump valve in that position would add redundancy, the ability to dump is not one of those things for which redundancy is necessary. In my opinion the fewer potential failure points the better for any skill level diver. In regards to rear dumps, having them so that they are at the highest point while in the swimming position is, in my mind, dangerous because (and yes this does happen) if one of those should fail or fall off then it makes it rather difficult for the bladder to hold air. I have a friend who after a dive realized that his rear dump was missing, but it wasn't a problem because it was on the bottom of the wing. If it had been on the top he would have either have swum out upside down or crawled his way out, neither of which are easy.

I'm going to have to call BS on #4. A double bag wing won't have anymore drag than a single bag wing because water is going to simply flow around the outer bladder of each; in other words, water takes the path of least resistance. If anything a double bag bladder is better because the outer shell gives added protection to the bladder and they are easily repaired.

I have to agree with you that a BP/W is not the only way to dive doubles, but I'm sure most would agree with me that it is the best, cheapest, and easiest way. BP/W are also the most durable, repairable and customizable BC out there.


The OP asked for opinions for a BC that he would not have to replace soon, and in my opinion the BP/W fits that criteria the best because the plate will most likely outlast his grandchildren, and it is the perfect base for a BC that will grow with him if he chooses to do technical diving. Also, I feel it necessary to add that by BP/W I am not only referring to hard backplates, but soft ones as well; such as the transpac.

All of that is my opinion of course.

 

[Walter]

I can take a Zeagle escape and put a bladder from the Ranger on it and still not be able to use doubles even though I have plenty of lift. This is because the Escape was not designed to accept doubles ie. there is no way to attach them to the BC. A BC has to be designed to accept doubles and have enough lift.

Not having examined every BC ever made, you might just be right. OTOH, I've yet to see a BC that I couldn't fairly easily adapt to accept doubles. Most I wouldn't, but them most I wouldn't want to dive with a single tank either. I've also yet to see any BC that didn't need at least a small adjustment to accept doubles. With my Scubapro Classic Sport, I have to first remove the tank band. Actually, I could attach doubles with the band in place, but it would increase the risk of entanglement. One critical point is the BC must have enough lift for the particular twins you plan to attach.

I think it unwise to suggest having a dump valve at the highest point while in the swimming position and while floating on the surface. There are two reasons for this: the power inflater (given the normal novice position and a well trimmed position is always at the highest point;

The power inflator is not always at the highest point. The Zeagle Ranger, for example, has the power inflator hose mounted well below the highest point. To dump all the air, a diver in the vertical position must lean forward and to the right to get it to the highest point. Some divers are not aware of the problem and overweight themselves because they always have air in the BC. There are many other BCs with similar design flaws with regard to placement of the dump valves.

and although another dump valve in that position would add redundancy, the ability to dump is not one of those things for which redundancy is necessary.

I don't remember saying it should have multiple dump valves at the highest point.

In regards to rear dumps, having them so that they are at the highest point while in the swimming position is, in my mind, dangerous because (and yes this does happen) if one of those should fail or fall off then it makes it rather difficult for the bladder to hold air.

I know I never said the rear dump should be at the highest point. Unless you are dangerously overweighted, losing a dump valve is a minor irritant, not a dangerous situation. Being seriously overweighted is a dangerous way to dive.

A double bag wing won't have anymore drag than a single bag wing because water is going to simply flow around the outer bladder of each; in other words, water takes the path of least resistance.

Having dived both in strong currents, I know you are mistaken, but use what you like. I have lots of buddies who complain about ripping current while I cruise quite easily up current. I'm in pretty good shape, but I'm not unusual, the difference is equipment choice and streamlining.