What Can The Industry Do To Help Independent Instructors?

[cerich]

Hmmmm.... Interesting thread.

I look at this from a macro economic perspective..

It started with a cry for Manufacturers to give gear to Independent Instructors and cut out the shop (not the middle man).
D6 has been thinking about this, wants to go one step forward from HOG, and "fund" showroom displays for Independents.

However, it seems the Independents need investing in some kind of infrastructure to be successful - Air Fills & Gear Servicing are still hard (hard not impossible) to deliver over the Internet.

So the model being invoked is a thousand mini-one-instructor-LDS instead of a few larger ones?
Is this the revolution?

Assuming that a given area instead of being serviced by let's say 5 shops, is serviced by 50 mini-one-man-LDS with smaller compressors (assuming all instructors feel like going independent), selling and servicing one full line manufacturer each (ultimately there is only 4 tier 1 that matter today, plus 6-10 tier 2 or 3 ), under much stronger cost pressure given the smaller scale, offering less choice (of agency, of gear, of ability to service).
Now each instructor-entrepreneur is competing with every one else in the territory for customers.
As a consequence, instead of making an extra easy buck on gear, each one is fighting everyone else for eyeballs (please do not tell me there is enough customers for everyone)

How is this benefiting the consumer? Well, it might up to a point, as instructors might decide to forfeit margins on gear as loss leader to gain on instruction, or discount instruction and hope to make it on gear. If the instructors take on each other in a price war, the customer wins.
Is this benefiting the Instructor? On paper yes, they now get the lion's share of revenue - instruction, gear sales, and service.

However, given the above macro dynamics, the costs to maintain the full operation and acquire customers are just going to increase as share of revenue, and in the long run, operations will consolidate back into a smaller number of outfits with the necessary scale to sustain the cost structure.

So in the end, the 'revolution' seems to really work only if a number of smarter semi-independent instructors can munch on LDS selling Air Fills and Service at a loss, while they undersell the LDS (and maybe a few Internet storefronts) on some gear pieces - so that the 'Independent' have none of the costs but can clean some crumbles off the table. Is that it? Isn't that what most of the smartest independent already do with HOG and a bunch of taiwanese manufacturers?

First of all Deep 6 is a brand of dive gear that will sell great gear with great service.
We are a direct to consumer brand, that is just the way it is.
The model is NOT predicated on being distributed thru Ind Instrs., however we do want to work with some Ind Instrs that do a great job and help make it easier for them to do it, and make money along the way.
Our model is not about exclusively thru Ind Instrs however so your thoughts that we want a 1000 mini one instructors LDS's is not what we are shooting for.
I can promise you that just enabling the endless rounds of discounting is FAR from the intention
A few of your thoughts regarding what would happen if that were the case are correct in my view, thus we aren't headed down the road you think we are

 

[CAPTAIN SINBAD]

Well alot has been said already but my shop has always worked with independent instructors because a rising tide floats all boats. They have channels of acquiring new divers that are better in some circles than ours and ultimately we have only ever been in competition with them for students not gear sales, charters, or fills. In fact frequently they increase the demand for our rental gear and air fills..... sounds like a win to me.

I do however reject the idea the the industry needs to do jack **** to help an independent instructor. Its what makes them independent. If all the shops in an area suck and are hostile to you then pony up a few grand for a compressor and fill station, sign a lease and stock up some gear so you don't need them....... this may require a loan or really generous patrons that don't like having piles of cash laying around. Create a website, get a phone line and internet onnection, advertise, hire people, sacrifice your freetime with family friends and lovers..... I did...... in the middle of the worst economy of a decade. Then smile when a new guy comes into town and undercuts your price because he didn't do all of that. Smile and be professional while you watch people pick other instructors who do less for the same amount of money, smile and be professional when those guys feel like they aren't getting their fair due..... Smell what I'm cooking here?

If manufacturers want to offer commissionable sales to instructors and cut out dive shops that a cool new business model. As is going direct from the factory to the consumer like Mako freediving has done. However, be prepared for those guys that ponied up the cash to buy compressors, store fronts, pools, sponsor scubaboard, host tournaments and beach cleanups and form the nexus of the community to gaze upon these industry changes with skepticism. In my experience independent instructors are about 50/50 either the best or the worst sorts of instructors with little middle ground. (My thanks to the indy guys I work with for be among the best on the planet.)

It seems alot more to me like people are looking to get the maximum gain with the minimum input, both some manufacturers and free agents. This is why agencies that require a shop affiliation are much appreciated. Its not hard for me to get to know you and sign off on you teaching "through" my shop without ever touching any money from the student you did all the work to acquire and train after all. All you have to do is not be a total asshat that I have a relationship with, right? (not directed at anyone in particular)

To my independnet instructor friends and allies, thank you guys for always recognizing a shop as a necessary place to meetup get gear and fills and always working with us and not against us. I won't work against you either and I'm sorry some have done so.

Very cute but this is what you are guilty of:

Crime # 1: Please post how much you would charge me if I came to you for a Divemaster course? Please post the total cost including text material and cert fees. Then please post what will you pay me if I was working as a DM for you?

Crime # 2: Please post how much would it cost me to become an instructor through you? Based on how much you pay your instructor, please calculate and tell me how many years will it take for your instructor to recover the amount he paid you to become an instructor?

Crime # 3: Please post how much are you charging each student when they come in there for their OW course. Please post how much of that goes to the instructor who teaches them and the DM who lugs their tanks and weights etc.

As you can see your entire business model works with you charging people so they can graduate as highly skilled free labor for you. They live off of tips and you are fine with that. They lug their tanks and weights and do this volunteer slave labor for you for a few years then eat their losses and move on with their real jobs. Of course you have rent, electricity and all your overheads to take care of but it is how you distribute the profit after your overheads are met that I am objecting to here. Why are you not selling your shop and moving on to a "real" job? Because the above agreed upon works it all into a real job for you.

 

[cerich]

in fairness, it isn't exactly just him that is guilty of.

By all accounts he runs a good shop.

My feeling is that he has embraced the traditional model with the normal Florida advantages. If that works for him and builds a good diving community of people that are having fun (even if they are slave labour divemasters) then...it is doing something taht is not a bad thing.

I disagree with some of the stuff he said, find some funny (in particular his comments on agencies that should be commended when the agency his shop offers is not one of) but believe that overall he is well intentioned, just tired of the "slagging" of the LDS when he is trying to run a good one and working hard at it.

Deep 6 doesn't want all dive shops to go out of business, we want divers to have great experiences that makes their life better in a variety of ways (the diving, social, environmental awareness and more). Do I feel the current industry is consistently delivering that? No, not in over a decade by the majority and almost two decades in a significant % of.

The sooner the bad dive shops fail, the better but they don't need a push, they are already in freefall

Very cute but this is what you are guilty of:

Crime # 1: Please post how much you would charge me if I came to you for a Divemaster course? Please post the total cost including text material and cert fees. Then please post what will you pay me if I was working as a DM for you?

Crime # 2: Please post how much would it cost me to become an instructor through you? Based on how much you pay your instructor, please calculate and tell me how many years will it take for your instructor to recover the amount he paid you to become an instructor?

Crime # 3: Please post how much are you charging each student when they come in there for their OW course. Please post how much of that goes to the instructor who teaches them and the DM who lugs their tanks and weights etc.

As you can see your entire business model works with you charging people so they can graduate as highly skilled free labor for you. They live off of tips and you are fine with that. They lug their tanks and weights and do this volunteer slave labor for you for a few years then eat their losses and move on with their real jobs. Of course you have rent, electricity and all your overheads to take care of but it is how you distribute the profit after your overheads are met that I am objecting to here. Why are you not selling your shop and moving on to a "real" job? Because the above agreed upon works it all into a real job for you.

 

[PatMyGreen]

Well Capt Sinbad here goes;
I Charge $6650 for DM training. Of that my cost on materials is $165 for a DM crew pack. The certifying in instructor gets $300. How you figure my cost on pool, park admissions, fills, boat trips and personal time is up to you. Burt it comes out of about $200. If you were working for me you would make $85 per boat trip you worked and $67.50 per DSD you taught (50/50 split) and a minimum of $11-$16 per hour if you were stuck working inside the shop. My shop employees make more money the more they can do. For example its and extra $1 per hour if they can VIP tanks, Instructors make more than DMs, boat Capt Licenses is also a pay bump.

We are not an IDC so we do not create instructors. However I have paid for several of my longtime staff to become instructors and work for me out of my own pocket because they couldn't afford it and I thought we would both benefit from it. Ball park on the cost is $2k though.

I charge $400 per OW student. My instructor gets $150 I get about $100 depending on how you figure costs like taking a trip on my boat since a student and an instructor on the boat prevent me from charging for 2 seats I could otherwise charge for. The boat isn't always full so its hard to inter that into the equation accurately. Nor do all students get to go on the boat since sometimes the weather forces us to do not boat dives on OW dives 3 and 4. We don't have DMs lugging tanks for OW class unless they ar eon the boat and a sI have said they get paid by me $85 per trip on the boat and I should probably add that our customers, being largely happy with the service they get typically tip $10 per passenger to the DM so his take is something like $150-$200 per boat trip onj average for schlepping the tanks and cleaning the boat.

As you can clearly see you have no clue in your little head about how the industry operate as a whole based on the little slice of it you have seen in all of your experience. The vast majority of successful shop owners I know value their employees as the most important piece of the whole operation. I personally chose a customer service business model (thats right there are different ways to run every business... short versus longterm gains). I am friends with my employees, we work and play together. I go to their weddings, Birthdays, and other life events. They come to mine.

I'm sorry you seem to have developed an abusive relationship with a crappy dive shop. I've seen plenty of people do the same. Don't you dare though say that the industry as a whole is a crappy abusive boyfriend and all men are pigs because you got burned. For what its worth I've been where you are and I started my own shop. If you think the existing shops don't like you as an independent guy, try actually becoming their competition.

You might want to gather some more intel on the industry you are seeking to become a professional member of before you embark further down this path.

 

[PatMyGreen]

And for the record, if Iwanted to do something else, Id sell the shop and just run charters and act as an independent instructor. It would be so much easier and profitable however I didnt feel that there was a shop I could work with back when I was doing exactly that. So I didnt ask the insustry to change, I ante'd up.

 

[cerich]

Well Capt Sinbad here goes;
I Charge $6650 for DM training. Of that my cost on materials is $165 for a DM crew pack. The certifying in instructor gets $300. How you figure my cost on pool, park admissions, fills, boat trips and personal time is up to you. Burt it comes out of about $200. If you were working for me you would make $85 per boat trip you worked and $67.50 per DSD you taught (50/50 split) and a minimum of $11-$16 per hour if you were stuck working inside the shop. My shop employees make more money the more they can do. For example its and extra $1 per hour if they can VIP tanks, Instructors make more than DMs, boat Capt Licenses is also a pay bump.

We are not an IDC so we do not create instructors. However I have paid for several of my longtime staff to become instructors and work for me out of my own pocket because they couldn't afford it and I thought we would both benefit from it. Ball park on the cost is $2k though.

I charge $400 per OW student. My instructor gets $150 I get about $100 depending on how you figure costs like taking a trip on my boat since a student and an instructor on the boat prevent me from charging for 2 seats I could otherwise charge for. The boat isn't always full so its hard to inter that into the equation accurately. Nor do all students get to go on the boat since sometimes the weather forces us to do not boat dives on OW dives 3 and 4. We don't have DMs lugging tanks for OW class unless they ar eon the boat and a sI have said they get paid by me $85 per trip on the boat and I should probably add that our customers, being largely happy with the service they get typically tip $10 per passenger to the DM so his take is something like $150-$200 per boat trip onj average for schlepping the tanks and cleaning the boat.

As you can clearly see you have no clue in your little head about how the industry operate as a whole based on the little slice of it you have seen in all of your experience. The vast majority of successful shop owners I know value their employees as the most important piece of the whole operation. I personally chose a customer service business model (thats right there are different ways to run every business... short versus longterm gains). I am friends with my employees, we work and play together. I go to their weddings, Birthdays, and other life events. They come to mine.

I'm sorry you seem to have developed an abusive relationship with a crappy dive shop. I've seen plenty of people do the same. Don't you dare though say that the industry as a whole is a crappy abusive boyfriend and all men are pigs because you got burned. For what its worth I've been where you are and I started my own shop. If you think the existing shops don't like you as an independent guy, try actually becoming their competition.

You might want to gather some more intel on the industry you are seeking to become a professional member of before you embark further down this path.

Can we keep this from turning into personal attacks please? I have a darn good idea of how the industry works and his perceptions are not entirely wrong nor correct.

 

[scubadada]

...Deep 6 doesn't want all dive shops to go out of business, we want divers to have great experiences that makes their life better in a variety of ways (the diving, social, environmental awareness and more)...

Where's all your stuff, seems like it's been coming for quite a while now

 

[cerich]

Where's all your stuff, seems like it's been coming for quite a while now

lol, well I am not just throwing my brand on the same old gear, it takes some time.

That said, I have lights and gauges in now, with a container on the ocean that arrives on May 18th.

 

[scubadada]

lol, well I am not just throwing my brand on the same old gear, it takes some time.

That said, I have lights and gauges in now, with a container on the ocean that arrives on May 18th.

Sorry, I see the $1,200 canister light on your website, nothing else. Look forward to seeing more

 

[The Chairman]

I feel that I have a good relationship with the LDS and other instructors.

That probably didn't happen by accident. It's no secret that I use the shop most that makes me feel most welcome. In some respects, I feel like I should be the "United Nations of ScubaBoard". I really feel uncomfortable recommending one shop down here over another as often my opinion is given undue weight. But no shop treats me like Rainbow Reef here in Key Largo. I drive past over a half dozen dive ops to use their boats. Why? They treat me, and more importantly, my students like we are gold. They make me feel important. News flash: they make every single independent instructor feel important. It's how they do it. I'm sure that there are a number of shops here in KL that don't like them, mostly because they make them look bad.

Guess what? That's why they're the busiest dive op in the Keys. It's also why I go out of my way, literally, to use them and yes, even promote them as my "go to" shop here in the Keys. They've set the bar high in my opinion. If you want me on your boat, you're going to have to earn my business just like they did.

Pretty much the same can be said about Cave Country Dive Shop in High Springs. No high pressure sales, no snarky comments about what I do for a living. They give me respect and I have no problem taking students to them and promoting their excellence.