What do you think of cave/cavern diving?

What do you think of cave/cavern diving?

  • Too dark, too dangerous, no way.

    Votes: 14 8.0%
  • Why would you dive to look at rocks and mud?

    Votes: 23 13.2%
  • I'd do caverns, but not full cave penetration.

    Votes: 33 19.0%
  • It is challenging and exciting.

    Votes: 77 44.3%
  • I am only happy when wedged in a deep dark hole.

    Votes: 27 15.5%

  • Total voters
    174

Please register or login

Welcome to ScubaBoard, the world's largest scuba diving community. Registration is not required to read the forums, but we encourage you to join. Joining has its benefits and enables you to participate in the discussions.

Benefits of registering include

  • Ability to post and comment on topics and discussions.
  • A Free photo gallery to share your dive photos with the world.
  • You can make this box go away

Joining is quick and easy. Log in or Register now!

Paladin954 thanks for sharing your story, it might help somebody to make a right decision one day (I hope).
I know few really good divers that don't know much about cave diving, did some dry caves and think that they can do diving in caves without any problems, because they don't mind getting squeezed or stuck somewhere. BUT cave diving is very different and like you said, the time / air is critical and matter of life and death.
 
I voted for option 1.... but then I began my diving in the UK....where 'caving' seems to consist of slithering through ice-cold mud. Definitely unappealing!

One question I have though is for those Cave divers who've done sump diving. As DevonDiver said already, caving a la UK is very different so what my question would be - what's the buzz with sump diving? I'd guess it's the thrill of exploration rather than quality of light, rock formations etc?

There is an excellent book on the subject, "The Darkness Beckons" by Martyn Farr. It does a great job of examining the difference between UK and US cave diving and also looks at German cave diving legion Jochen Hasenmeyer.

One of the points the book makes is that cave diving in the UK originally started as a means to allow 'dry' cavers to extend their exploration (cavers learning to dive) whereas cave diving in the US began because divers were doing a dive in the spings to rinse their gear after ocean dives and, of course, one thing lead to another (divers learning to cave).

This book is an excellent read and I highly recommend it. It should be required reading, along with "The Last Dive" by Bernie Chowdhury, for anyone interested in cave diving.

Be safe and have fun in the water! Bruce
 
If you were in deco during intro you were already breaking many rules.:shakehead: You and your instructor should have had better sense.
I don't recall you being there, so I wonder why you think you know enough about that dive to make the WA assumptions?.

At worst it would be one rule broken (deco at intro), not several. You can get into deco on 1/6ths and do it while staying on the mainline with no jumps at LR, especially on the second dive of a day.

The important piece of information to consider here however is that having a computer briefly step into deco mode at depth does not automatically equate to breaking the no deco rule. As I stated, I was not worried about it. What I did not state is that I was not worried about it based on previous deco experience (not the norm at the intro level) and in particular with that computer, where I was confident with the cave profile on exit that it would clear from deco mode during a normal ascent before we ever reached the required stop depth.

Now, you can argue in a soft overhead environment that deco is deco as it prevents a direct ascent to the surface. But in a hard overhead that is harder to make that same arguemnent0 as a direct ascent is never an option anyway. If in the process of getting out of the hard overhead, at least to the first stop depth, you clear the required deco from the computer then there is no difference in the exit regardless of whether the computer decides for a few minutes at depth that you need a deco stop as there is no deco stop required by the time you get there. In effect, it does not change your exit or exit requirements in either an emergency or a normal exit.

The other thing that needs to be considered is that this was understood and anticipated when the dive was planned.

With regard to the rule, the time it takes to run into deco varies. For example, what if you are diving Nitrox using EADs and US Navy tables? That allows a lot more bottom time than most computers, but it does not require a mandatory stop. Would the same dive be both in compliance and in violation of the no deco rule depending only on whether you have a computer along, or depending on what table was used? How about if the computer is along only the backup?

That rule, like most rules, is not as black and white as many people would like to make it, what really matters is the larger issues that underpin the reason for the creation of the rule. With this this rule in particular, the deco itself is only a small part of the issue with the "no deco at intro" standard.

There are in my opinion, too many cave divers who break rules and too many cave divers who bend them, but the ones who worry me the most are those who do not understand them or their intent.

For example, an intro level diver could follow all the intro rules by taking a 1200 ft primary, run off the main line into parts of a cave that are tight (but not quite restrictions) and that are very silty. And he or she could do it while skip breathing to stay under 1/6ths. The end result will be a diver in O2 debt with high CO2 levels and increased suceptibility to both Ox tox and narcosis who is going to use a lot more gas going out than coming in even before you factor in the silt.

The diver will stay within the Intro rules, but it is irrellevent as it is not prudent and fundamentally violates the over arching purpose of the intro rules:

1. limit total penetration in order to limit the distance needed to exit in the event of an emergency,
2. to limit the diver to primarily established mainline pentrations, and
3. increase the gas reserve the diver has to adderess issues that may arise on exit.

The irony here is that some cave divers, in their zeal to not break any of the rules can find themselves developing habits that are detrimental to their over all future in cave diving - yet those who do not understand the rules or more importantly the intent, will not have a problem with it and will not call those divers on their questionable and unsafe practices.

And of course at the same time it appears that some cave divers will throw around wild accusations of multiple rules being broken based only on the knowledge that a dive computer went into deco at depth, with no additional knowledge.

One of the things I like about cave diving is that it is very exacting and demanding and rewards those who can think and who can also grasp the big picture while it is ruthless with those who cannot.
 
DA Aquamaster, I'm gonna teach you a secret....no matter what you do in cave country, SOMEONE will disapprove, save your effort defending yourself. We're talking about a community that argues online over the color of the guidelines in Ginnie!

I got chewed out for stage diving at Apprentice, if I would have used double LP120's cave filled it would have been OK....same gas volume, fewer redundant sources of gas, but whatever.

My conclusion - It's your life, make your own educated decisions....just don't post them online if you don't want feedback.
 
I don't recall you being there, so I wonder why you think you know enough about that dive to make the WA assumptions?.

You clearly said you were breaking the no deco rule in your intro class what is their to assume? Whats really funny is now your trying to rationalize why you broke that rule and then later going on to assume that Kevin Carlisle doesnt understand why the rules were made a bit ironic.
 
What does it matter if I was there or not. For one deco is not allowed in Intro dives.. If you want I can even say your story is BS.. You did not get to the Florida room on 1/6 unless you had a scooter and thats out of the question. Its a high flow system. I just did 1100ft in it last week. Its easy to pull up a map and say oh I was there. My whole point is that its pretty sad if a cave instructor is already having you break rules.. And like I said YOU should have known better since you read the books but really shame on your instructor :D

I don't recall you being there, so I wonder why you think you know enough about that dive to make the WA assumptions?.

At worst it would be one rule broken (deco at intro), not several. You can get into deco on 1/6ths and do it while staying on the mainline with no jumps at LR, especially on the second dive of a day.

The important piece of information to consider here however is that having a computer briefly step into deco mode at depth does not automatically equate to breaking the no deco rule. As I stated, I was not worried about it. What I did not state is that I was not worried about it based on previous deco experience (not the norm at the intro level) and in particular with that computer, where I was confident with the cave profile on exit that it would clear from deco mode during a normal ascent before we ever reached the required stop depth.

Now, you can argue in a soft overhead environment that deco is deco as it prevents a direct ascent to the surface. But in a hard overhead that is harder to make that same arguemnent0 as a direct ascent is never an option anyway. If in the process of getting out of the hard overhead, at least to the first stop depth, you clear the required deco from the computer then there is no difference in the exit regardless of whether the computer decides for a few minutes at depth that you need a deco stop as there is no deco stop required by the time you get there. In effect, it does not change your exit or exit requirements in either an emergency or a normal exit.

The other thing that needs to be considered is that this was understood and anticipated when the dive was planned.

With regard to the rule, the time it takes to run into deco varies. For example, what if you are diving Nitrox using EADs and US Navy tables? That allows a lot more bottom time than most computers, but it does not require a mandatory stop. Would the same dive be both in compliance and in violation of the no deco rule depending only on whether you have a computer along, or depending on what table was used? How about if the computer is along only the backup?

That rule, like most rules, is not as black and white as many people would like to make it, what really matters is the larger issues that underpin the reason for the creation of the rule. With this this rule in particular, the deco itself is only a small part of the issue with the "no deco at intro" standard.

There are in my opinion, too many cave divers who break rules and too many cave divers who bend them, but the ones who worry me the most are those who do not understand them or their intent.

For example, an intro level diver could follow all the intro rules by taking a 1200 ft primary, run off the main line into parts of a cave that are tight (but not quite restrictions) and that are very silty. And he or she could do it while skip breathing to stay under 1/6ths. The end result will be a diver in O2 debt with high CO2 levels and increased suceptibility to both Ox tox and narcosis who is going to use a lot more gas going out than coming in even before you factor in the silt.

The diver will stay within the Intro rules, but it is irrellevent as it is not prudent and fundamentally violates the over arching purpose of the intro rules:

1. limit total penetration in order to limit the distance needed to exit in the event of an emergency,
2. to limit the diver to primarily established mainline pentrations, and
3. increase the gas reserve the diver has to adderess issues that may arise on exit.

The irony here is that some cave divers, in their zeal to not break any of the rules can find themselves developing habits that are detrimental to their over all future in cave diving - yet those who do not understand the rules or more importantly the intent, will not have a problem with it and will not call those divers on their questionable and unsafe practices.

And of course at the same time it appears that some cave divers will throw around wild accusations of multiple rules being broken based only on the knowledge that a dive computer went into deco at depth, with no additional knowledge.

One of the things I like about cave diving is that it is very exacting and demanding and rewards those who can think and who can also grasp the big picture while it is ruthless with those who cannot.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
ok 2 navigational decisions
dumb cave. I don't remember details...
 

Back
Top Bottom