What does certification REALLY mean?

[Brian Sharpe]

The fear was that unless the industry regulated itself, government might step in and none of the early entrepreneurs wanted that... so they joined with the lawyers and insurers and today - this is what you're stuck with.

It's already happening in Quebec (Canada), at least in theory anyway. You are supposed be be certified by FQAS (or have a tourist exemption) but I don't think there's any active enforcement (yet).

 

[CWSWine]

I plan to do my AOW with less than 15 dives and I don’t see anything wrong with that. I look at AOW as OW 2 and just learning more skills, there is nothing in the description that says I will be an "advance diver", just a diver that has more training than a OW diver with the same amount of dives. For me personally, it’s going to be a confidence builder and more time with an instructor before heading out on my own for ocean dives – that can’t be bad. Maybe Padi should take the word advance out of the name since it seems people think “advance” with being an “advance diver” and call it “Open Water Two” because that is the way it see it.

 

[k ellis]

well I think in alot of ways the certifications leave alot of room for debate. I do beleive some certifications are a must though. Open water, deep, wreck, nitrox are all very much important since they bare serious problems if you attempt to perform these dives without the knowledge that goes with it. I wont lie and agree I moved up the chain of dives simply to gain experience with a knowledgeable diver to be with me. If you are going to pay someone who is experienced to dive with you you might as well get the card for usually a few bucks more.

I Do think some of the courses are over exagerated but it depends on what you want to get out of it. If you want to learn about fish then fish ID is beneificial. If you want to learn about equipment then the equipment specialty is great.

Yes in the definition of "Advanced" The advanced open water is pointless as it does not really do more then give you 1 single dive in each of the 5 specialties. The best part of my taking the class in addition to getting to dive with a knowledgeable diver is I got to meet all kinds of interesting people both new to diving and experienced alike!

 

[scubajcf]

I like to tell my students not to confuse certification with qualification.

You "earn" your certification by completing minimum standards during a course.
You earn qualification through a combination of experience and skill mastery.

Someone who has 1000 dives is probably qualified to lead a newly certified diver on a dive. Someone who has 100 dives and has passed an Instructor course is (by definition) certified to teach a student. Do they have the experience set to teach them appropriately ... maybe.

One of my favorite stories I like to tell is the first Instructor course of which I was a staff member. The day before the Instructor Exam, we brought the 8 candidates to the Ocean (Laguna). The surf was active that day, but not terrible. 7 of the candidates had never done a surf entry. The day before the IE, we were teaching them to do surf entries. Many of the candidates only had (a majority) of their experience at the local lake.

I could go on and on with stories just like this!!!!

Certified versus qualified. Does someone with a week's worth of experience and 9 dives really qualify to be an "advanced diver"? Does someone who has banged out 60 dives (20 feet for 20 minutes) in a local lake really qualify to be a Divemaster/Dive Professional?

Stepping off my soapbox ...

 

[ScubaSteve]

OK. So, I agree with pretty much everything you have said SCUBAJCF, however I have concerns which I do not know how to easily correct...thus the problem persists.

Should I, a student , be able to expect that the person who has been tasked to teach me the particular skill or process (could be clearing a mask or nuclear physics) has the experience and skills (mastered - not just hey I did that once) to in fact be teaching me? YES!!!! I should be able to expect this. I said it in an earlier post. It is hypocritical for any shop or agency to have someone with piss poor buoyancy skills critiquing my skills. Should the drunk that lost his liscence for too many accidents be able to teach me to parallel park and tell me what I did wrong? I expect that the person that the shop or agency puts in front of me to teach me, is in fact a master of what they are teaching.

This is not a position that leads to tons of happiness as I further my Scuba career. I have seen some terriffic instructors who really seems to have their act completely together, and I have seen the people that really had no place critiquying many skills because they themselves had problems with them. I do know that it is impossible to put true skills testing and evaluation into place (one that is objective rather than subjective) and thus we are stuck with the system that we have. I know it will likely not change a whole lot so while I disagree, I will work within it's limitations and refrain from critiquing the instructor's abilities (or lack there of).

DONE.

 

[scubajcf]

OK. So, I agree with pretty much everything you have said SCUBAJCF, however I have concerns which I do not know how to easily correct...thus the problem persists.

Should I, a student , be able to expect that the person who has been tasked to teach me the particular skill or process (could be clearing a mask or nuclear physics) has the experience and skills (mastered - not just hey I did that once) to in fact be teaching me? YES!!!! I should be able to expect this. I said it in an earlier post. It is hypocritical for any shop or agency to have someone with piss poor buoyancy skills critiquing my skills. Should the drunk that lost his liscence for too many accidents be able to teach me to parallel park and tell me what I did wrong? I expect that the person that the shop or agency puts in front of me to teach me, is in fact a master of what they are teaching.

This is not a position that leads to tons of happiness as I further my Scuba career. I have seen some terriffic instructors who really seems to have their act completely together, and I have seen the people that really had no place critiquying many skills because they themselves had problems with them. I do know that it is impossible to put true skills testing and evaluation into place (one that is objective rather than subjective) and thus we are stuck with the system that we have. I know it will likely not change a whole lot so while I disagree, I will work within it's limitations and refrain from critiquing the instructor's abilities (or lack there of).

DONE.

Thanks for the invite to your soapbox. It's nice to see there is room for two.

Actually, we are not stuck anywhere, unless we choose to be stuck. Would you hire a guitar instructor who couldn't play Stairway to Heaven? Would you hire a golf pro who sliced the ball repeatedly? No, of course not.

It is essential that we interview the folks who are mentoring us in our Scuba Career! Would you let an Investment Advisor handle your life savings without a little due diligence.

It is amazing how many people sign up for Scuba courses and show up the night of the first class having never spoken to their instructor or asked about their credentials. It further amazes me that people sign up for advanced level classes or specialties and don't inquire one bit about what they are going to learn and/or how they are going to be evaluated. In many cases, they are focused on the certification -- not the qualification. No questions asked!

To help with the dilemma you point out ...

1) Ask questions. Ask Why. Do not settle for a half baked answer. Look for third party confirmation -- like Scubaboard.

2) Talk to someone who has been down this path before with this instructor. Check his/her references. Ask what they liked and didn't like about the course. Remember, these folks may not have done their due diligence and were just in it for the card.

3) Find out what the requirements/standards/curriculum is and what is expected of you. Understand exactly how much time and attention you are getting from the instructor. Are they organized????

4) Is there time for practice? Don't take a course that doesn't allow you time to hone your skills for evaluation.

5) What is this instructor's qualifications? Why is he/she teaching this course? Does he/she dive like this for fun or just when they teach. Don't take classes from people who only use Nitrox when teaching Nitrox class. If they don't have a value set for regular use; how are they going to convey it to you. BTW - I said qualifications; I could care less about certifications.

6) Hang out socially and "fun" dive with your instructor. Whenever someone comes to me and says they want to be a pro (DM or Instructor), the first thing I do is take them up to the lake and see if they are fun to be around. It's a long course (when done right). Do I really want to spend that much time with someone who isn't ready or is someone I do not respect? While fun diving, practice skills. I know some instructors who refuse to dive unless they are getting paid ... uggg. If you are that burnt out, you should be teaching golf. Tell the instructor, you would like to see him run through a skill circuit, so you can see it done correctly.

7) Ask how often they train / do refreshers /etc. What was the last class they took? If an instructor is not constantly working to improve their skills, what makes you think they will commit to truly assisting you in honing your skills.

8) Have a plan. You wouldn't get in the water without one. Why commit to a scuba career without one. Have your instructor assist you in developing that plan. Ask him/her why she is making the recommendations she is making. Every step should have quantifiable measurement and value. Don't just take I said so as an answer. Or, this is what I did. Have the folks on Scubaboard you trust help you with the plan.

I don't know if this is an answer to your question, but I think it point in the right direction.




jcf


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[Phil_218]

I have read many good points made in the posts within this thread and would like to add my take on the topic.

I received my OW cert in July 08 and am currently in the process of completing my AOW. Being a new diver, I see the certifications much like a license to learn. I'm sure the "badge" is a nicety, or source of pride, to some, but to me the education received is the basic knowledge allowing me to begin using and improving the newly learned skills.

After receiving my OW cert, I began diving as often as my schedule would allow and used at least a portion of each dive to work on the basic skills I learned in the OW class, especially Bouyancy Control. Because of this extra focus on practicing basic skills, I was able to complete two drift dives in Cozumel relaxed and in comfort without causing damage to the ecosystem due to a lack of control. This was made possible by education and experience.

I moved on to AOW solely for the purpose of gaining basic knowledge and a taste of dive "specialties" while under the supervision of a qualified instructor whom I am comfortable with (and whom has over 3000 dives). These "Adventure" dives have given me additional experiences, under competent supervision, and allowed me to further improve on the skills I have learned up to this point.

I really think the names of the certifications often get misconstrued with compentancy. Having an AOW cert does not make me an advanced diver by any means, only means I have met the criteria to pass the prescribed course of that name. However, I fully understand its easier to market the idea of being and "Advanced" diver than say that of an unimpressive sounding "Skill level 2" or something like that.

I feel the true measure of ranking for a diver is not only the education he/she has completed, but also the number and quality of dives completed (experience) to improve on the education.

As for instructors certifications, I really see a push for divers to progress to the Instructor level (at least with PADI). I've often wondered, with all the Instructors who are being certified, is there really enough people seeking the training to keep them all busy? Based on the different things I hear and read, it seems to me the sport is heading in the direction of having more instructors than students.

I am very comfortable with my instructor due to his patience, concern for safety, knowledge, ability to teach others, and vast experience. In my mind, these are the traits which make him a good instructor and why I'll stick with him for all of my training.

Thanks for allowing me to throw my 2 cents into the pot.

 

[scubajcf]

..... I feel the true measure of ranking for a diver is not only the education he/she has completed, but also the number and quality of dives completed (experience) to improve on the education.

Glad to see that, as a new diver, you have a realistic grasp on things.

As for instructors certifications, I really see a push for divers to progress to the Instructor level (at least with PADI). I've often wondered, with all the Instructors who are being certified, is there really enough people seeking the training to keep them all busy? Based on the different things I hear and read, it seems to me the sport is heading in the direction of having more instructors than students.

While there are many perspectives that you can look at in regard to this "push", the economic reality is the most obvious. All agencies and dive shops make more money when people "go pro". They have to buy a lot of books (great margins for the agencies), they have to pay for training (great for diveshops and agencies), they have to buy a lot of equipment (great for diveshops and manufacturers), they have to pay a lot of agency fees and insurance (great for agencies and insurance companies), they become cheap if not free labor for the dive shops (great for diveshops).

I think you see where I am going. It always makes me smile when I hear an owner of a diveshop tell an OW student, that they have a real "knack" for the sport. They should consider going pro. Yes, I said OW student.

I am very comfortable with my instructor due to his patience, concern for safety, knowledge, ability to teach others, and vast experience. In my mind, these are the traits which make him a good instructor and why I'll stick with him for all of my training.

Good for you. Make sure you refer a lot of business to him. That's the only way instructors make any money in this game.

jcf




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[jviehe]

On a practicle level, it signfies that you have demonstrated the minimum skill and knowledge for that certification. Nothing more or less. For many people, it is a tangible artifact that they have achieved a certain skill level, much like merit badges in the Scouts. Not a bad thing, just an individual orientation that really doesn't detract from my diving, unless they get in my face with it which most divers don't. I equate certification with getting a drivers license, which shows that you have minimum competency to operate a motor vehicle and know enough about the vehicle code to pass a test. At that point you need to gain experience, which is why many states have "graduated" requirements for teen drivers.

People learn and get experiences in different ways. Some like the structure and sociability of a structured course. Others like to learn by doing. My education has been a combination of both. I have had really good instructors having done most of my training in a university setting.

Yes, there is a marketing aspect. But I had a marketing professor insist that you really won't buy something that you don't want. I do find it on that a Master diver can be achieved in as few dives as it requires, but if a certification impresses someone, chances are they are easily impressed.

This. Certification is evidence of a course completed, standards met, nothing more. Dont belive all the BS spewed out against the AOW course. Its primary purpose is to introduce new divers to new experiences and conditions they may not have done in OW in a supervised setting. It is not meant to make you an expert, only to advanced you, which if you read the defintion of advanced does not mean expert, only further along, in this case, than OW. It is far from meaningless.

 

[rstofer]

This. Certification is evidence of a course completed, standards met, nothing more. Dont belive all the BS spewed out against the AOW course. Its primary purpose is to introduce new divers to new experiences and conditions they may not have done in OW in a supervised setting. It is not meant to make you an expert, only to advanced you, which if you read the defintion of advanced does not mean expert, only further along, in this case, than OW. It is far from meaningless.

And this point, that AOW moves you along, is exactly why I recommend taking it the week after OW. And Rescue the week after that. Whatever the actual schedule, take them as quickly as possible.

These classes provide advancement along the path of training. Take as many classes as possible, as quickly as possible. Get as many supervised dives as possible as soon as possible. All combined they won't make you an expert or even very experienced. But they will provide some exposure to the scope of diving. OW certification, with 4 dives (mostly doing school exercises), is pretty meaningless in the scheme of things.

If people admire the Scripps 100 Hour program or the GUE Rec 1 Diver program (and I do) then they should also recognize that taking OW, AOW, 5 swimming specialties (detailed elsewhere) and Rescue provides a similar level of training. It is unfortunate that it isn't a planned, structured and cohesive program but, unless you can get the Scripps or GUE program, it's about as good as you will get.

Then go diving to get the experience for which you have been trained.

Richard