What if... [loss of buoyancy question]

[boulderjohn]

Doesn't matter whether you dive doubles, single tank or sidemount. It's not a rule, it's physics.

Well, first of all, it is a rule for a number of agencies.You cannot teach a class or be a student in a class with double steel tanks without redundant buoyancy, either a dry suit or a dual bladder wing.

But let's talk physics for the single tanks. For reference, check out this specification chart: Scuba Cylinder Specification Chart from Huron Scuba, Ann Arbor Michigan

A Luxfer AL 80 when completely empty is 4.4 pounds positively buoyant. In the steel tank section, you will see whole lot of tanks that are in the 0 to -3 pound range when completely empty. If you contact a physicist, he or she will explain to you that the difference in buoyancy between the aluminum and steel tanks ranges from roughly 5-7 pounds. Wet suit buoyancy varies by quite a bit, ranging from a 3mm suit to a 7mm two piece suit. Therefore, quite a few divers wearing wet suits with steel tanks are still going to have to wear weights in order to submerge.

 

[Bennno]

Ok, just FYI to the fast reader. I was just reported by a mod for 'personally insulting' people in this thread and breaking the board rules...
I wonder whom I have 'personally insulted'.

 

[Diver0001]

When you look at the run-of-the-mill vacation type dive shop in Egypt, Spain, Thailand or wherever. The vast majority of customers have less than 100 dives. I wouldn't be surprised if 80% have less than 50 or even 30 dives. I very much doubt that every stundent is taught a buoyancy ckeck and you or I hae no way of knowing that.


Ironically, you're calling me judgemental a couple of lines futher down the same post.


What I find very aggravating about Sb is that it's very cliquey and lots of poor and one-sided advice is given to beginners by the 'heavy' posters and mods... everybody needs to buy a BP/W (and it's gotta be DSS of course), PADI is fantastic and you can't start too early with your PADI tec training (and here is a like where you can book), whenever something is wrong it's always the divers fault and never the agency or the instructor, yadi yadi yada... yet, if you utter an opinion that not to their liking, the SB 'experts' start whining and reporting.
When I call something BS, I do so because I think it's BS. What do you want me to do? Beat around the bush in a 500 word post, so a SB 'expert' doesn't feel like he's been criticized?

Look at this thread. The OP asked whether it's a problem when your BCD craps out. The answer is NO, not when you dive with the proper amount of weight! It's not a matter of opinion and no anecdode changes that fact. I explained this without attacking anyone, but yet again, the SB crew seems to have an issue with that.


You can't be for real.

I'm actually unsure what you're trying to say. It looks like you're trying to say that anyone who disagrees with you, if it is SB mods, or me or Santa Claus, must have something wrong with them.

I actually expected that response.

As for knowing for sure what happens when your BCD craps out.... I would LISTEN if I were you, instead of talking, when people who have ACTUALLY had this problem, are talking..... To me it looks like you want to spin theories and make judgments when people are telling you what actually happened in the water...... I think that's odd.

R..

 

[Bennno]

Well, first of all, it is a rule for a number of agencies.You cannot teach a class or be a student in a class with double steel tanks without redundant buoyancy, either a dry suit or a dual bladder wing.

But let's talk physics for the single tanks. For reference, check out this specification chart: Scuba Cylinder Specification Chart from Huron Scuba, Ann Arbor Michigan

A Luxfer AL 80 when completely empty is 4.4 pounds positively buoyant. In the steel tank section, you will see whole lot of tanks that are in the 0 to -3 pound range when completely empty. If you contact a physicist, he or she will explain to you that the difference in buoyancy between the aluminum and steel tanks ranges from roughly 5-7 pounds. Wet suit buoyancy varies by quite a bit, ranging from a 3mm suit to a 7mm two piece suit. Therefore, quite a few divers wearing wet suits with steel tanks are still going to have to wear weights in order to submerge.

Yeah, quite a few divers have to wear weights and some don't. What's your point?

 

[Storker]

When you're on vacation you often don't have a choice.

Yes, I have. I have the option to call the dive. If I deem my gear config to be unsafe, I'll do just that. That's a choice I'll always have.

 

[Bennno]

As for knowing for sure what happens when your BCD craps out.... I would LISTEN if I were you, instead of talking, when people who have ACTUALLY had this problem, are talking....

Yes, they had this problem because they were overweight!

It looks like you're trying to say that anyone who disagrees with you, if it is SB mods, or me or Santa Claus, must have something wrong with them.

Well, Stroker just PMed me, telling me that I'm breaking forum rules... apparently I have been insulting people and need to get banned for what I wrote in this thread.

 

[boulderjohn]

Yeah, quite a few divers have to wear weights and some don't. What's your point?

You said....

That's why you're not supposed to use heavy steels in wet suits... look up 'balanced rig' if you wanna learn more about it.

...and you said...

Doesn't matter whether you dive doubles, single tank or sidemount. It's not a rule, it's physics.

I guess I misunderstood it when you said that you are not supposed to dive with steel tanks with a wet suit. When you mentioned the phrase "balanced rig," I foolishly believed you were talking about buoyancy and the ability to get to the surface with your gear. Now that you say that you agree that people diving with wet suits and steel tanks may need additional weight in order to submerge, I have to admit I have no idea what you are talking about and will await an explanation. If the weight of the total rig is not an issue, why is it that people cannot dive with a wet suit and a steel tank (something I do with frequency, BTW).

 

[Bennno]

If the weight of the total rig is not an issue, why is it that people cannot dive with a wet suit and a steel tank (something I don with frequency, BTW).

I already said, it CAN be a issue with smaller people and kids. The weight of the rig is not the issue, the body type of the divers is.

Three of the shops I worked for in Egypt and the Med only had steel tanks and that's no problem for most people and it's no problem when a bcd craps out, BUT (as I have said) smaller people and kids WILL sink like a stone in a 3 or 5mm suit, even when their 10l goes to 30 bars or to zero.

That was the point I was trying to make. In the following post I tried to explain to Storker that the weight of the tanks does matter. Than Diver0001 basically tells me he has an 'allergy' against me and I get reported by storker... what do you guys want from me?

FYI: I have asked Storker, where the 'personal insult' is he reported me for. As an answer I get, that he can't believe how stupid I am.

 

[Storker]

what do you guys want from me?

This forum is intended to be a very friendly, "flame free zone" where divers of any skill level may ask questions about basic scuba topics without fear of being accosted. Please show respect and courtesy at all times. Remember that the inquirer is looking for answers that they can understand. This is a learning zone and consequently, any off-topic or overly harsh responses will be removed.

 

[Bennno]

Storker, you have accused me, yet AGAIN, of having insulted people personally per PM. I asked you where the insult is and you relpy this: 'Are you naturally this stupid, or are you working to get there? Or is it your reading comprehension that's really lacking?'
I didn't say I was 'allergic' against anyone. Diver0001 did, and that' where the thread got off-track.

If anyone is flaming, it's you.