What makes a master diver?

[Davidstealey3]

if you want to do a real master diver course. look at the YMCA's program. there course is much like doing a divemaster where you get quized on physics, physiology, medicine along with skill evaluations. plus dont forget the swim test. i have dove eith some great PADI guys and gals. anyway PADI has a specialty card for that mask designed by NASA. and if using that mask in any way makes you a master diver it is beyond me. you should have a lot of dives in a lot of different enviroments, deep dives, and night dives before trying for this cert. look at it like the navy, you dont get to be a Navy Master Diver if you dont get in the water and dive, nor are they getting it 2 years after they become divers. it takesw them time and they have to show that they are proficient with alot of things.

 

[Guba]

Honestly, T and GA, I do understand what you both are saying. I'm sorely afraid that my attempts to explain my position have been inadequate.
Do I believe that we should seek out the best training possible? Absolutely. However, for some of us poor schmucks, that training is very far away in many ways, including geography, time, financial resources, etc... Therefore, we do the best we can with what is available.
Does that mean that since I can't have "the best"--or "superior" training as it has come to be known in this thread--that my training is INADEQUATE? I don't think so. I frimly believe that my training has served me well and will continue to do so as long as I stay within that training and not dive beyond it.
The unfortunate part of all this is that one agency has chosen to label one of its programs "master". We run into that all the time in education circles. We have "master's degrees", and there are "master teacher" programs. The problem is that neither of these terms insure that those who go through them are masterful or even proficient in teaching. However, they have the credentials and have been thoroughly tested. Conversely, some of the best teachers in the world refuse to seek out these programs...they simply go about being the best teachers they can be. It's sometimes ironic, and that irony shows up in diving, too.
Here in Texas, we have a set of standardized tests that our students must pass. The state sets the minimum standards, and schools are "graded" by how their students do. Schools can then be deemed "exemplary", "recognized", "meets standards", or "below expectations". I think our cert agencies might be placed on the same scorecard. What is debateable is where one thinks his/her own agency falls on that scorecard.
The crucial question is "do I feel my training has been inadequate FOR THE SITUATIONS IN WHICH I DIVE and the situations that I might encounter?" I honestly don't think so. If I did, I'd be a fool to keep diving and risking my life.
In all honesty, though, you notice where my training ends. For me, Rescue was as far as I needed to go. The "master scuba challenge" offered by PADI doesn't interest me, but that isn't to say some of the specialties don't. I've been fortunate enough to get much of the additional training and skills I wanted through other avenues, and the MD designation doesn't appeal to me simply because it seems to be a magnet for some of the criticism I've witnessed in this thread.
Well, that's about enough of this. This thread is taking on a life of its own, it seems, and sometimes that means things turn ugly. I think I'll bow out of it while the gettin's good.
I appreciate ya'll's input, though. Much obliged, amigos!

 

[GA Under Water]

... this all got started by ...



... Bob (Grateful Diver)

The arguement not the OP.

My appologies to the OP if it was taken that way.

 

[MikeFerrara]

The crucial question is "do I feel my training has been inadequate FOR THE SITUATIONS IN WHICH I DIVE and the situations that I might encounter?" I honestly don't think so. If I did, I'd be a fool to keep diving and risking my life.

That's an important point. At one time, I would have agreed that you're training was adequate but through experience that beliefe ended. Looking back, as a new PADI instructor who followed my training to the letter, it's only a little short of a mirical that I didn't get somebody killed. Nobody dies but there were sure a lot of them who strugle quite a bit when it could have been avoided.

Now, and again looking back, with more teaching experience, more diving experience and lots more training under my belt, I really don't see those courses (PADI OW, AOW and rescue) as being adequate for much of anything.

OW gets you access but not much skill..so the access can be a bad thing. AOW gets you more access and some experience doing some different activities poorly. It must be done poorly because nothing resembling good technique is required to be taught in OW. A lot of sense it makes to teach "deep diving" to somebody who has never been required to demonstrate that they can dive well shallow. LOL...ok then, we kneel at 20 ft and then we kneel at 60 ft only we can't kneel as long at 60 ft.

Rescue does introduce some really valuable skills that would come in handy if one could dive well enough to put them to use. Just go out and watch some rescue classes do some searches. By the time they get done mucking the place up and getting all knotted up in the lines, it's a wonder that anyone could fine anything. LOL Note, please, that rescue course standards require that divers attempt the skills but there are no performance requirements that require much in the way of proficiency in performing those skills.

You're a teacher right? You wouldn't put a student in a calculus class before they learned to add, subtract, multiply and devide, would you? What sense does it make to try to teach someone to perform underwater searches and surface unresponsive divers when they haven't learned to swim in a circle without mucking everything up or to surface themselves with any degree of control?

I don't doubt that most "rescue divers" think their training is adequate.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

......immediately followed by the person carrying the "divemaster" card. Deliberately trying to lose some one who was on their own and tagging along is henious, and falls well below *any* standard of "professionalism".

The "divemaster" should have saved his actions for back on the boat - complain, rip some one off a strip, demand your money back, contact the shop owner - stamp shout and make a scene *on the boat* - when the clearly troubled diver was safe and back on the boat as well. To *deliberately* endanger some ones life so you get a "good dive" is reprehensible.
-j-

Weighing in on the other conversation going on here ... I'm going to respectfully disagree. I'm with Mike on this one ...

Sorry ... but the matter of "professionalism" doesn't apply here. The diver in question may have been a divemaster, but according to the story he was not acting in that capacity, nor had there been any agreement on his part to accept this person on his team. One simply doesn't break the dive plan underwater because someone unknown to you decides to join your team. That's irresponsible, and places a liability on both you and your dive buddy. Unless I see someone showing some sign of distress, I have no moral or professional obligation to interact with them underwater ... and if I DO see a sign of distress, the dive is over and we will all be taking a trip to the surface.

I have, on two occasions, had someone I didn't know attempt to join my buddy and myself during a dive. On both occasions I responded the same way ... communicate with my dive buddy and deliberately swim away from that person. In neither case did it look to me that the person trying to join us was in any sign of distress ... and I did not choose to accept the liability of allowing an unknown person to join us for the dive.

I will happily dive with new divers under most circumstances ... as will most experienced divers I know. There are two prerequisites. First is that they have to ask ... and the second is that I have to agree. Both of those conditions must occur before the dive begins. If either of those two conditions are not met, that person isn't diving with me ... even if I have to take evasive action to avoid them.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[MargaritavilleDiver]

What makes a "master diver"?

Someone who answers all my newbie diving questions and sounds like he/she knows what he/she is talking about!

Just my 2c.

 

[fisheyeview]

Great buddy system work there! Perhaps you should have informed the crew of your dive plan and expectations beforehand instead of trying to ditch a newbie. I suppose you were never a newbie and never had to have someone show you the ropes? What s skeech!:wallywink

If you want to quote me please do not do so out of context.

Here is the whole post:
I am a photographer, so when I dive for fun I am shooting pictures. I have had the unfortunate experience of a boat crew pointing me out to a newbie diver (without my knowing they did so) to follow around on a dive. It was our first time on the boat, and I made the mistake of showing my DM card.

The newbie expressed her concern about being new, and not nowing the area. I later learned that the crew pointed me out to her and told her that I was a Divemaster, and that she should follow me around. My wife and I (she is also a photographer) spent most of the dive trying to lose this diver who was following us around. It is the one and only time that we used that boat. I also told the captain what his crew had done and demanded a fee for a guided dive. I was not expecting to get any money, I just wanted to make my point.

The post was in response to why I would not show my DM card to a boat when I am on vacation, anbd diving for fun. Had you read the post properly, then you would have understood that I did not learn that the boat crew had pointed me out to this person as a DM to follow around.

Try to grasp what the post is saying instead of quoting it out of context, or partially quoting it to fit your agenda.

 

[fisheyeview]

Regardless shouldn't it be once a buddy always a buddy until the dive is done? What if they actually ditched her and then she had trouble? Would your statment and their attitude really matter then?

Sounds pretty, dare I say, elitist! Plenty of that around here though. If you ask me I see a bigger danger being partnered with the elite, better than thou group who are too busy being better than everyone else, than from a newbie. Of course I'm a newbie so maybe my observations and opinions don't mean much! I hope I don't ever get stuck being a burden to you wonderful awesome divers!!!

Once again you have missed the point. I was unaware that the boat crew had told her to follow me around until after I was back on the boat. As a paying customer am I expected to take care of every diver from the boat?

 

[fisheyeview]

......immediately followed by the person carrying the "divemaster" card. Deliberately trying to lose some one who was on their own and tagging along is henious, and falls well below *any* standard of "professionalism".

The "divemaster" should have saved his actions for back on the boat - complain, rip some one off a strip, demand your money back, contact the shop owner - stamp shout and make a scene *on the boat* - when the clearly troubled diver was safe and back on the boat as well. To *deliberately* endanger some ones life so you get a "good dive" is reprehensible.
-j-

Once again another miss informed post. You might want to read my post before jumping to conclusions.

Here is my origianl post:
I am a photographer, so when I dive for fun I am shooting pictures. I have had the unfortunate experience of a boat crew pointing me out to a newbie diver (without my knowing they did so) to follow around on a dive. It was our first time on the boat, and I made the mistake of showing my DM card.

The newbie expressed her concern about being new, and not nowing the area. I later learned that the crew pointed me out to her and told her that I was a Divemaster, and that she should follow me around. My wife and I (she is also a photographer) spent most of the dive trying to lose this diver who was following us around. It is the one and only time that we used that boat. I also told the captain what his crew had done and demanded a fee for a guided dive. I was not expecting to get any money, I just wanted to make my point.

This post was in response to why I do not show my DM card when diving on vacation. I was unaware of the fact that the person was told to follow me. She never spoke to me on the boat before the dive. She spoke to me on the boat after the dive, and told me that the crew had told her to follow me. Before the dive she expressed her concerns to the boat crew not to me.

I never said that she was a troubled diver in the water. She expressed her concerns to the boat crew who did not talk to me. At no time during the time that she was following us did she exhibit any problems or signs of distress. I have no problem shoving my camera off to my wife and assisting a diver if I see they are having a problem. I have done this on more than one occasion, even while on vacation.

I did take it up with the crew once I was back on the boat.

 

[fisheyeview]

Weighing in on the other conversation going on here ... I'm going to respectfully disagree. I'm with Mike on this one ...

Sorry ... but the matter of "professionalism" doesn't apply here. The diver in question may have been a divemaster, but according to the story he was not acting in that capacity, nor had there been any agreement on his part to accept this person on his team. One simply doesn't break the dive plan underwater because someone unknown to you decides to join your team. That's irresponsible, and places a liability on both you and your dive buddy. Unless I see someone showing some sign of distress, I have no moral or professional obligation to interact with them underwater ... and if I DO see a sign of distress, the dive is over and we will all be taking a trip to the surface.

I have, on two occasions, had someone I didn't know attempt to join my buddy and myself during a dive. On both occasions I responded the same way ... communicate with my dive buddy and deliberately swim away from that person. In neither case did it look to me that the person trying to join us was in any sign of distress ... and I did not choose to accept the liability of allowing an unknown person to join us for the dive.

I will happily dive with new divers under most circumstances ... as will most experienced divers I know. There are two prerequisites. First is that they have to ask ... and the second is that I have to agree. Both of those conditions must occur before the dive begins. If either of those two conditions are not met, that person isn't diving with me ... even if I have to take evasive action to avoid them.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Finally, someone who gets it.

Thanks