WHAT!! you didn't buy from me!!!!!

[Northeastwrecks]

metridium once bubbled...
northeastwrecks and chickdiver, among others, you're very fortunate to have the LDSs you do. If I had options like that, I'd probably feel the same way. But I don't. By necessity, I'm pretty much a free agent.

My gear selection has been pretty much a la carte as I've slowly made my way from strictly vacation diving toward the technical side. Until very recently, it was impossible to get the gear I wanted within hundreds of miles, so internet or mailorder was my only option for several key items.

In other cases, the limited selection of gear at the LDSs was a serious impediment, and the exorbitant prices they wanted was the final deal killer. I honestly don't think there's anything the LDS could legitimately do for me that would justify paying an extra $500-$700 for a drysuit.

I agree. We are fortunate.

I started out knowing that I wanted to dive wrecks. I started into technical diving when I found out that some of the coolest wrecks were deeper than PADI thought I should dive.

It seems like we are talking about two radically different worlds. My LDS is responsive to customer demand.

Two examples.

My LDS didn't stock Halcyon when I first started diving. It became obvious that a number of us wanted Halcyon, so the owner and one of the instructors made inquiries and gave us the good news:

"If you guys want to go with Halcyon, that's fine. I'll get the dealership. However, they require a large initial order. Give me your orders for what you want and, if that is not enough to satisfy the initial order, I'll fill out the balance with stuff I can stock. However, I want to see a large order from you guys in order to justify this."

We placed the order and now the LDS is a Halcyon dealer. We won because we've got a great local source of gear that we want. The LDS won because he has a new line that generates sales.

The same goes for the fill station. The LDS filled Nitrox for us and for a number of other shops. We want Helium and Argon. Its available 45 minutes down the road.

One of the instructors worked with the owner to prove that the numbers could work. The system is being installed sometime in the Spring.

The point is that we cooperate. The owner would not have been justified in taking the risks involved in acquiring new lines and new equipment if his clients were not loyal. We would not have stayed with the shop if he could not get the stuff we wanted.

I'll tell the LDS when I want something that he doesn't have. If he can't get it, he tells me and there are no hard feelings if I get it somewhere else. But I always give him the first chance.

If your LDS is not supporting your needs by stocking the equipment you want, then I can't in good faith argue with your decision to buy online.

But don't you find it interesting that the people who seem to have the most problems with LDS are the ones who seem to have very confrontational attitudes?

 

[King Kong Matt]

Northeastwrecks once bubbled...

But don't you find it interesting that the people who seem to have the most problems with LDS are the ones who seem to have very confrontational attitudes?

I think the airline discussion illuminated the fact that, in reality, this is not really about the LDS at all.

I think some people need a crisis in their lives to function properly, and others need to perceive themselves to be the victim of something dastardly...it gives them the comfort of an unequivocal moral high ground that is absolute and unwavering.

The self-created nightmare experience at the local LDS only serves to validate their outlook, as if to say..."see, I'm not paranoid...there is INDEED a world conspiracy out to scr*w me".

It if weren't so sad, you could dismiss it outright as a pure egotistical delusional fantasy...if it weren't so sad.

Me? I'm too stupid to concoct an imaginary friend, let alone an imaginary network of dark agents and LDS with global price fixing schemes designed to get another couple bucks out of me. At least I sleep at night...

 

[metridium]

Northeastwrecks wrote...
If your LDS is not supporting your needs by stocking the equipment you want, then I can't in good faith argue with your decision to buy online.

Not stocking, exorbitant pricing, ethically indefensible, etc. In such a situation, "bang-for-the-buck" is paramount.

I wish I could support the shop where I did my OW, but they carry only one product line, and it's one I have zero faith in. I didn't know about the manufacturer's reputation when I signed up, but I still feel bad about not being able to throw any business their way, recommendations aside.

Northeastwrecks wrote...
But don't you find it interesting that the people who seem to have the most problems with LDS are the ones who seem to have very confrontational attitudes?

It may be that they are simply the ones more likely to speak out against it.

Do I come across as being confrontational? I've had my share of problems/misunderstandings/SNAFUs with different shops, but I don't consider myself that way...with a couple of exceptions here on the board.

Happy New Year, everyone!

 

[Bob]

the point applies
to many businesses...mine just happens to
be law. Insurance, gas station, hardware
store....people tend to do business with the
people that do business with them. It's
just networking.


__________________
Lawman

Point well made. I tend to do business with people who treat me honestly and respectfully. I recommend my LDS for dive instruction and gear purchases, he gives me price breaks. Networking... I like that. :tree: Bob

 

[Popeye]

Bob once bubbled...
the point applies
to many businesses...mine just happens to
be law. Insurance, gas station, hardware
store....people tend to do business with the
people that do business with them. It's
just networking.


__________________
Lawman

Point well made. I tend to do business with people who treat me honestly and respectfully. I recommend my LDS for dive instruction and gear purchases, he gives me price breaks. Networking... I like that. :tree: Bob

My LDS gives me 20-30% of any purchase, never says a word when I buy gear over the internet (brands they don't carry), and allows me the run of the shop and fill trough.

They are full gass service, multi-agency, and have a pool.

In return, I recommend them, help out with classed if asked, and help out in the shop or with fills from time to time.

Having been in a good many diveshops, and worked in one, I know I'm fortunate to have a diveshop of this quality in my area.

 

[Northeastwrecks]

metridium once bubbled...
Do I come across as being confrontational? I've had my share of problems/misunderstandings/SNAFUs with different shops, but I don't consider myself that way...with a couple of exceptions here on the board.

Happy New Year, everyone!

Absolutely not. There is a vast difference between expecting good service and engaging in delusional fantasies that everyone is part of a vast conspiracy against you. There is also a difference between a discussion of issues with the LDS and a rant that makes people wish for a drill so that they could open their skulls to let the boredom out. Yours is the former. I'll leave it to someone else to figure out who fits the latter.

While it may be true that confrontational people are more likely to complain, it depends on when the complaining starts. Some people seem to go aggresive right out of the gate. Their attitude makes it less than worthwhile to seek out their business or do anything to keep it.

By way of example, if anyone ever gave me the speech that Genesis posted earlier, I would (1) refuse to take them as a client; or (2) fire them immediately if I had already taken them as a client. Life is too stressful to deal with more a**holes than absolutely necessary.

Popeye, your relationship with the LDS sounds like mine. Its a two-way street, with benefits to both.

Happy New Year

 

[Bob]

Popeye,
Sounds as if you and I have similar arrangements with our shops. I to feel fortunate to have a excellent diveshop and relationship with them. :tree: Bob

 

[SlurrySeal]

My LDS gives me 20-30% of any purchase, never says a word when I buy gear over the internet (brands they don't carry), and allows me the run of the shop and fill trough.

Thats great that you get a 20%-30% discount, but I would rather shop at a store that simply lists competative prices. Can you imagine if every retail business operated this way? I wouldn't want to haggle over the price of eggs at the supermarket, nor would I want to feel that if I do pay the price shown at the LDS I am being ripped off. Shopping for gear shouldn't be like buying souveniers at the bazar in Marrakech, and that is how many LDS's make it.

At a LDS I asked how much an item was only to be told by the owner, "It depends on who you are". You can bet that is not going to be a shop I frequent.


-Lance

 

[Northeastwrecks]

SlurrySeal once bubbled...


Thats great that you get a 20%-30% discount, but I would rather shop at a store that simply lists competative prices. Can you imagine if every retail business operated this way? I wouldn't want to haggle over the price of eggs at the supermarket, nor would I want to feel that if I do pay the price shown at the LDS I am being ripped off. Shopping for gear shouldn't be like buying souveniers at the bazar in Marrakech, and that is how many LDS's make it.

At a LDS I asked how much an item was only to be told by the owner, "It depends on who you are". You can bet that is not going to be a shop I frequent.


-Lance

The prices at my LDS are already competitive and reasonable. I'd buy from them even if I never got a discount.

However, here's how to get the discount.

1. Go to the shop.

2. Help with fills, tank schlepping and classes.

3. Go on to become a DM.

4. Refer a few people to them.

5. Assist at classes. Preferably, specialize in problem cases.

6. Help on local and Carribean trips. Develop and run the upcoming "Experience Local Wrecks" program in conjunction with one of the boat captains.

7. Oh, yeah, spend several thousand dollars outfitting your wife and you. She gets a nice back inflate BC and Carribean rig. You get singles, doubles, and all the other tekkie toys.

Think of it as a volume discount and a little appreciation for hard work.

 

[djhall]

Small dive shop ecconomics are a total mystery to me. I cannot understand how small LDSs can compete in any way with online and large scale retailers. For example, wholesale cost on ScubaPro MK25/S550 regulators is about $225. LeisurePro sells them online for $265, which translates into a markup of ~$40 per regulator. How many regulators can a small shop sell in a week? Not very many, I would think. I would assume the ecconomics on other items are similar. Against that, the LDS has massive inventory costs if they try to maintain any kind of selection, along with the cost of a storefront, insurance, utilities, employees, etc. I don't see how anyone, other than a large retailer, can possibly survive on that kind of margin. "Freebies" won't help here, because the "freebie" either isn't really valuable or simply reduces the shops profit through another method (ie. getting around pricing restrictions).

Two observations from this perspective:

First, it seems that many LDSs respond to this pressure by taking the position that they provide a valuable service beyond simply ordering and supplying gear. Depending on the shop, this may be true. And, depending on the customer, customers may be willing to pay more for those services. A true win-win situation for everyone. BUT, some shops DO seem to develop an attitude that THEY are doing YOU the service by selling you gear at high markup, and YOU are the problem if you don't feel they deserve it. I believe this attitude is the main reason people are treated poorly because they purchased equipment somewhere else. Of course, on the flip side, the shop doesn't OWE you service with a smile, either. I suppose, the shop could always tell you to take your gear for servicing somewhere else if you don't like the service. I don't find the frustration behind the "I don't need my LDS, they need me - I hate not having a great LDS" comments all that strange. They are just upset that they can't buy only the services they want from the LDS without the added guilt trip.

Second, what would happen if dive shops and the dive industry evolved to compete in the areas in which it is ecconomical for them to do so? It seems that stock gear is most ecconomically provided through order sales and large retailers serving large populations. When you decide you need a new regulator, is it really that inconvenient to buy one from LeisurePro? If you want to try a new BC, why not drive the hour or two to the nearest large city to purchase from a decent selection at reasonable prices? Why should a dealer need to invest tens of thousands of dollars to carry multiple brands & lines of dry suits in every stock size? Can't manufacturers sell dealers inexpensive sizing suits that are not expensive functional models, but simply a representation of the fit? Why not find a sizing suit that fits and order the real thing? On the other hand, who wants to send their gear away for servicing, to order a nitrox certification online, to ship tanks in for filling, or a million other mostly service and rental related issues? Why don't many snall LDSs simply loose the overhead and expense involved in gear sales, cut their costs dramatically, and operate as high quality service and instructional outlets? I would love a dive shop that only provided instruction, dive trips, service and repair for any brand of gear from any source, refurbishing of gear purchased on eBay, tank fills, rental gear, and advice on where to go to purchase gear inexpensively. All you would need is a filling station, classroom, and repair shop with parts stock. Am I missing something here?

Oh well... just my two cents.