What's the Canon of Choice these days?

[Nemrod]

I went back to the local camera store and spent some time with the S90. First, the "inconvenient" lens ring is in fact very handy to use, will feel completely natural for anyone who grew up with film cameras and is in fact fortuitous because without it the S90 as housed by Ikelite would be useless since the rear dial is not available in that housing.

The lens ring is very easy to use and can quickly be assigned to various functions depending upon what mode you prefer to shoot in. My opinion based now on about one hour of playing with the camera is that the Av and Tv modes will be most useful underwater. In this mode the lens ring can be assigned to aperture/shutter or preset the aperture/shutter before closing the housing. Then reassign the lens ring to "Exposure Compensation" allowing you to vary your exposure by a full two stops. To reset the aperture you would have to momentarily reassign the lens ring to aperture/shutter, set as you want and then reassign back to exposure compensation.

In manual, the only way I can see to control both shutter and aperture is to assign the ring first to shutter, select your working speed, usually 1/60, /1/125 and occasionally 1/250 and then assign the lens ring to f stop and control exposure as you wish. This would work very well, just as on a old time film SLR, the shutter speed was preset, the lens had the f stops on it for quick adjustment since that is where your fingers were to control focus as well.

All of the assigning and reassigning of the lens ring function seems complicated but actually it is as fast as setting shutter and aperture on my current 570, it is just you use one control to do everything.

As to the location of the lens ring knob on the Ike housing, I think they chose correctly having it on the right side since your left hand will typically hold the camera tray handle (left side handle) leaving your right free for adjustment of controls. I don't use my left hand for that.

But, if there were a housing that allowed access to the rear control dial, that would be peachy keen and make the camera very fast to adjust settings.

The front lens ring, to say it again, at least without housing, is very easy to use and much better than punching buttons. It is very fast and easy.

N

 

[PNG Diver]

Aaaah! Finally I get it - thanks to Gert 7to3. The issue for a macro photographer in trying to decide between G11 versus S90 is not the 140mm versus 105mm zoom. The real issue is the 1cm versus 5cm close focussing distance. That seems obvious. But I was getting hung up by discussions I have read about the relative benefits of 60mm macro prime lenses versus 100mm macro prime lenses on DSLRs with 1.6 X cropped sensors. I was imagining the zoom on the G11 might cover the equivalent of both options.

So. Three FINAL questions before I send some cash to Australia and hope that a camera makes its way back to me here in the wilds of Papua New Guinea:

1) How would the relationship between the two Camera’s minimum focussing distances change at focal lengths that are longer than 28mm? Lets assume that a tiny fish won’t let me get less than 5cm away from it. So I need to back away a bit and zoom to a longer focal length. If the RATIO between the minimum focussing distance of the two cameras stays at “1:5” then the G11 is a huge winner. If (for example) at 45mm zoom, the G11 could focus to 10cm but the S90 could only focus to 50cm, then forget the S90. But if the DIFFERENCE of 4cm persisted (eg 10cm on G11 versus 14cm on S90) then the S90 might still be in the race.

2) I think this is what the “maximum image magnification” or the “lens magnification ratio” of lenses is all about. But I can’t get my brain around it and I can’t see that number on the specifications for either camera. Is it possible to calculate it by knowing the minimum focussing distance of the widest focal length? And is it a constant across the zoom range of a zoom lens?

3) I understand that the problem for the G11 with wet mount Wide Angle lenses is the long travel of the lens when zooming. But could this also be relevant to wet mount Macro lenses? Say I zoom to 45mm on both cameras and the S90 lens is very close to the end of its’ port but the G11 lens is still a long way short of the end of its’ port. How much would this affect the performance of the optics of a wet mount macro lens. Is it at all possible that if I was planning to use a wet mount macro lens a lot, the S90 could have BETTER optics for macro than the G11?

Oh! And before I get muddled again. When people say “zoom in”, do they mean zoom to a higher magnification / longer focal length - which is what I would mean. Or do they mean the opposite because the lens is going “in” to the camera. Some posts have me double-confused by this.

 

[BKP]

I've been using the A650IS (picked it up before the price went mysteriously into the stratosphere).
However, it's the 1st Canon I've had, that I'm not completely happy with (quality of picture-wise).

I've been looking at the G11. The articulating viewfinder is *very* handy for me (love it on the A650IS -- except of course in an underwater housing). Easy to take angled shots holding the cam away, or centering timed shots. I actually prefer the lower MP, as my feeling is anything over 10MP is erroneous, and detracts from low-light shots. The G11 lowers the MP from its previous G10, but keeps the same sensor size = reduced noise. Not sure I'd have any use for HD video, however, it could very well be one of those things you you can't do without once you've tried it.

I prefer the P&S over the DSLR, if only for the Live View. All the lens availability of the DSLRs isn't that important to me, and you do have wide angle, macro and telephoto options for the G11.

Now if only they'd switch to AA batteries, so I can just pop a few Sanyo Eneloops in there...

 

[Buoyant1]

To the OP, you are using her 570 UW in the meantime, right???.....

No, No housing for it. With some of the info re: the batteries, I may reconsider for now. (and pass that information along to a friend that has a 570.)

But...when I did purchase the (used) A80, I did so with the idea that it was a "starter" camera, and that after ramping up my dive gear I would get into the camera game at a later date...The A80 has been reliable (with it's faults) and satisfied my u/w picture taking whims. (and put a few decent shots on my basement wall)

Getting into the lens issues that Nemrod brought up. SO you are saying that so far the G9, 10, & 11 (as well as the S90) do not have housings that support changing lenses? I'm considering that when I DO finally make a purchase, to invest in a wide angle lens right off the bat since that appears to be a must have. I know that Inon has a conversion kit for the Canon housings to add a lens, but have no experience with that and whether it's a viable option. I'd like to start building something that will have some longevity (well until I flood the bugger)

Thanks to all so far for the debate....good stuff to chew on!

 

[RainyRide]

I have decided to get G11 and Canon housing for it. There's one auction on ebay for the housing comes with a slave flash. Total kit cost $340. Does anyone have any suggestions on the flash? I am not sure the on in the kit is enough or not. Another flash option is from Fantasea which cost $300 for flash alone. Below is link to the ebay kit I am looking at now and Fantasea flash. Any help is much appreciated.
ebay auction link

Fantasea on Adorama

 

[jbb]

I went with the $600 Ikelite housing. Robust construction, excellent factory support, and the abiltiy to use Canon's TTL circuitry were all features I valued. Its drawback is that it is quite bulky. If you don't care about the TTL feature, Canon's much less expensive housing has gotten excellent reviews.

I'm still using my G7 and canon case since the G7 came out. Buttons are a bit sticky on the case but they haven't made the big advance I was hoping for on the model range yet. I just bought an s90 for handy carry everywhere surface shots.

I think I'd go for the G10 even with the G11 out.

 

[PNG Diver]

In the absence of any answers, I thought of a simpler way to ask my previous question.

With both the G11 and the S90 at 28mm zoom, the G11 can focus to 1cm while the S90 can focus to 5cm (in air). So if you could get as close as you wanted to, then the G11 would have the potential to make small fish look 5X bigger horizontally and 5X bigger vertically. So 25X bigger than with the S90.

When you zoom to a longer focal length, the minimum focussing distance increases. But by staying at the shortest focussing distance for the zoom length you choose, the size of the image of the fish with that camera MIGHT stay exactly the same as you zoom. I have searched the internet and can't find confirmation that this is true - but one thread seemed to be suggesting it. The reason it is important is because if it were true, you could make the following statements about the G11 versus the S90.

1) At any given distance from a fish, the G11 has the potential to make the fish look 25 times bigger than the S90 can (if you want it to!).

2) If getting very close to the subject is not difficult, then for any given zoom length you choose then, the G11 can still make a fish look 25X bigger than the S90 can.

And that would seem to be the most important advantage of the G11 over the S90.

I am determined to get to the bottom of this because I have had so much fun pondering it! I am a

Any help (for either my questions or my dorkiness) would be much appreciated.

 

[Warmwater Wank]

PNG--Uh, not 25x bigger. First, w/ the G-10 I use (and as far as I've heard, the G-11 is the same basic lens setup) yes, the image size stays about the same as you zoom in (ie--make the image bigger). This is because, as you note, the larger the focal length, the further away you have to be from your subject. Now, distance and focal length certainly affects how things can look but the key concept here is "reproduction ratio". In close up work it's used to tell you how big an object will appear in the frame, compared to real life. You do not multiply width by height to get "25 x bigger".

Example: A lens that dellivers a 1:4 reproduction ratio (often abbreviated as "repro") would make a 1" mark on a ruler appear as a 1/4" in size on the frame (we used to say "on the piece of film" but that's just revealing my antiquity...). You could also say it's "one fourth lifesize" and be understood. This gets around the confusion of distance vs focal length, since ultimately it is how big you can make the object appear in the frame, not how physically close you are, that really counts. Being further away and getting things to appear just as big is nice when dealing with skitterish critters, but being too far can create problems in low viz or in getting sufficient flash exposure. As my old photo instructor, Bernie Freemesser at U of Oregon ("Go Ducks!"), used to always say "Photography is a series of compromises".

It would simplify things if Canon listed the reproduction ratios at a variety of focal lengths w/ the G-11 and S90 but they don't, at least not that I've seen. BTW, I shoot my G-10 in a Canon WP-DC28 housing and have a great close-up attachment setup that ReefNet puts out. I'm using their SubSee magnifier ReefNet Inc. | SubSee Magnifier and Adapter. The adapter screws down on the housing and uses a swing-away gate holding the magnifier (which is a +10 diopter lens). Keri Wilk is at DEMA even as I write this showing their new diopters that they are bringing out, a +5 and a +10w/ a 52mm glass diameter. I've ordered a dual gate to hold both diopter lenses and hope to use it soon on a S.Pacific trip. Meanwhile, this is what the 10+ SubSee magnifier does on my G-10. Hope this encourages you to have a bit more fun pondering! (I also hope that the OP does not mind the semi-hijacking... ) // ww

Spotted anemone shrimp on Bonaire using G-10 w/ 10+ SubSee adapter (uncropped, not sharpened)

[/IMG]

 

[Nemrod]

No, No housing for it. With some of the info re: the batteries, I may reconsider for now. (and pass that information along to a friend that has a 570.)

But...when I did purchase the (used) A80, I did so with the idea that it was a "starter" camera, and that after ramping up my dive gear I would get into the camera game at a later date...The A80 has been reliable (with it's faults) and satisfied my u/w picture taking whims. (and put a few decent shots on my basement wall)

Getting into the lens issues that Nemrod brought up. SO you are saying that so far the G9, 10, & 11 (as well as the S90) do not have housings that support changing lenses? I'm considering that when I DO finally make a purchase, to invest in a wide angle lens right off the bat since that appears to be a must have. I know that Inon has a conversion kit for the Canon housings to add a lens, but have no experience with that and whether it's a viable option. I'd like to start building something that will have some longevity (well until I flood the bugger)

Thanks to all so far for the debate....good stuff to chew on!

It is too bad you do not use your 570 as it is the sleeper camera of the last couple of years, a true giant killer. There is no battery problem, I realize there is a huge long thread on the "battery problem" but the whole thread makes a mountain out of a mole hill. The 570 will shoot through three long dives firing strobe on nearly every shot as fast as you can push the shutter button with Eneloops regardless of all the hysteria.

The Ikelite G10/G11 housing does not support the threaded 67mm wet lenses nor does the Canon housing, the Ikelite does allow the use of a bubble lens corrector and Fantasea has a similar corrector for the Canon housings. The S90 Ikelite housing DOES allow wet lenses per Ikelite, how well they really work is an unknown. The Canon S90 housing is unknown but I suspect it will NOT support wet lenses.

N

 

[Buoyant1]

I went to a Best Buy yesterday while on the trail for another item, and stopped by the camera dept. for the giggles of it. They had a G11 and S90 sitting side by side and I like both cameras. Seeing the price difference between the two housings on the Ikelite site, I think I'm a definite lean towards the S90. (but still have thoughts of getting the G11 and the Canon housing to start..B&H in NY has them for $175.00... then when a little "flow" returns my way get the Ikelite housing for it, only because I'm thinking that it would be something to build upon)

Still in the planning stages though.

re: the 570, I DO like the little camera. It takes really nice pictures! I will have to try the battery "fix" that has been suggested. So far, my wife has been using "energizers" and it seems that we turn the camera on...take about ten to twenty pictures and the battery light starts flashing.

I appreciate all of the help so far!