What's the point of a long hose?

[boulderjohn]

I looked to my left and my panicked buddy ripped my primary out of my mouth and clamped down. No way I was getting that reg back anytime soon. This was in the early 70's and we did not have octo's. I made a free ascent.

Of course, there is one very, very good reason that he went for your primary instead of the alternate in this case, isn't there?

 

[mdb]

Of course, there is one very, very good reason that he went for your primary instead of the alternate in this case, isn't there?

Boulderjohn: Yes, of course, in this case my friend went for the only regulator available. In the second incident a very experienced diver did the same thing even though he had my octo as an option. My point being that a panicked diver will, as NWGD stated, go for the first reg he sees.

 

[boulderjohn]

What I was referring to is the practice I've seen of teaching a diver to raise their arm to expose the backup reg ... allowing the OOA diver to "take" it. The problem I have with that method is that it puts a stressed diver in charge of making the decision, and assumes they'll respond as they were trained.

I tell my students that the OOA diver is pretty much always going to make the decision about how the alternate is obtained. The OOA diver is going to do something after going OOA. It might be to grab at your primary. It might be to grab at the alternate. It might be to signal and wait for you to act.

If the OOA diver goes for the alternate without signaling, lifting the arm and getting out of the way is the right thing to do. If you reach for it at the same time the OOA diver is reaching for it, you can get in each others way. I saw two different occasions during OW checkout dives where the donor fumbled the handoff, the OOA diver reached for the fumbled alternate, and the two of them got into something like a handfight trying to get it. In both cases I had to intervene with my alternate because their competing hands could not get the regulator.

If the OOA diver just gives the signal without reaching, then you should hand the alternate.

If the OOA diver takes your primary, spit it out, take your alternate, and sort things out later.

The practice I can't believe is one I heard of about a year ago--putting up your hand to repel the person going for your primary while you reach for the alternate instead. This is not a time to be getting into a fight with a panicked diver.

 

[Gombessa]

The practice I can't believe is one I heard of about a year ago--putting up your hand to repel the person going for your primary while you reach for the alternate instead. This is not a time to be getting into a fight with a panicked diver.

I think someone from about a year ago was a pretty fierce advocate of the "simply drown them and resuscitate on the surface" school of thought. :shocked2:

 

[boulderjohn]

Boulderjohn: Yes, of course, in this case my friend went for the only regulator available. In the second incident a very experienced diver did the same thing even though he had my octo as an option. My point being that a panicked diver will, as NWGD stated, go for the first reg he sees.

Just joking--in your first case, I could argue that the OOA diver took the last reg he saw, couldn't I?

 

[Jim Lapenta]

I use long hose for the most part on checkouts and I teach students to donate. The donor should always have control of the air supply. I'm not going to punch someone who goes for the reg in my mouth but unless I'm bushwacked by someone I'm betting I have the reg in their mouth before they realize it. I was taught the take method and don't care for it. I also teach students when they donate to hold the reg by the hose near the second stage so that the purge is not covered should the diver need it. I have also been training them to take the reg out of their mouth the same way every time even on the surface. I want that purge button uncovered and if they get into the habit of removing the reg from their mouth that way it is less likely they will do it and cover the purge when it comes time to donate.

 

[TSandM]

If somebody grabs your reg when you're on a long hose, you just duck your head, and the hose slides right off your head and gives the person a lot of slack. The BSAC people DID prove that, if the OOA diver approaches from precisely the right angle (behind and above you on your left) and reaches around and grabs your reg, the hose won't slide off. I think it's sufficiently unlikely that an OOA diver will approach me from above, behind and on the left that I don't worry about it

 

[LiteHedded]

Bob:

I agree that the OOA diver will go for the first reg they see.

It is not always possible to have a reg out at arms length for the OOA diver. I have had two incidents personally where the OOA diver literally ripped my primary out of my mouth, once overhead and once straight on-face to face.

The donor will not always be in charge of what regulator will be used for the OOA diver.

I've seen this myself as well

 

[mikecotrone]

When the hose is stowed in the 'Hog' fashion (around the neck) it is deployable by simply ducking the chin. It slides off easily. That is stage 1. It gives approx the same length of hose as a regular AAS set-up.

Once the OOA diver has secured the regulator, begun breathing and calmed, the donor is then able to disengage the remainder of the hose to deploy it at full length.

I make a point of practicing air donation 'in anger'. i.e. in the worst case scenario, where the reciever is panicked and/or air-starved... and may be brutal in securing the reg. Never had problems under those circumstances.



I based my examples on personal experience coupled with reported real life incidents.

Personal Experience: teaching OW and Rescue divers AAS drills and noting their relative capacity to ascend under control whilst sharing air.

Reported Incidents: a number of diver deaths reported in the BSAC annual accident reports that reflect this scenario.



The point of the long hose is that the divers can ascend as individuals, within a 'generous' proximity to each other and without direct contact ('death grip'). Under those circumstances, the divers suffer less stress and are able to better manage their buoyancy on ascent.

When sharing air from a conventional AAS, with a 'death grip', the divers have to closely coordinate their buoyancy. It is easy for one diver to become negative, whilst the other compensates with excessive buoyancy. That works only up until they happen to become separated (losing the 'death grip').

The PADI style 'Roman Handshake' is particularly poor for this. It relies on both divers sacrificing the use of one hand for the entire duration of the ascent... and having to manage their buoyancy with the other hand. If any other problem occurs (i.e. flooded mask - likely when in such close proximity) then they either have to abandon their buoyancy control, or their 'death grip' or both... to deal with that problem.

Makes sense?



Any air-sharing procedure should start with the donor ensuring that the recipient is calm before ascending. It's an important step that doesn't recieve the attention that it should in training scenarios.

If the recipient cannot be calmed, then it becomes more than an AAS ascent... and moves firmly into the realms of a full-blown rescue scenario. I also teach this in rescue class... where either active or passive panic by an OOA diver means that the donor has to take complete responsibility for the ascent. It can be simular to raising an unconsious diver...and requires a simular process.

Andy,

Thank you for your posts on this topic. I just had my first Rescue Diver class last night and I learned many of the techniques you have been talking about. I wanted your suggestion on hose length for the "Long Hose" configuration on a rig.

Thanks!

 

[mikecotrone]

Boulderjohn: Yes, of course, in this case my friend went for the only regulator available. In the second incident a very experienced diver did the same thing even though he had my octo as an option. My point being that a panicked diver will, as NWGD stated, go for the first reg he sees.

I am a new diver, but I am educated in the differences between using an Octo off of your inflator vs. an octopus regulator off of the 1st stage. The experienced diver did the right thing by going for your primary regulator since the Octo is for you during the air share situation. That is one of the reasons I decided to use a 19cf pony during my quarry dives since I do not want any quarry diver having to use my primary regulator. Naturally if I get ambushed and he steals it that is a different story, but if I have the choice I am always giving them my pony.