When is a skill "mastered"?

[Wookie]

Point taken. "At that level of development" attatched to "mastery" is understandable. With 49 years of playing clarinet, 2 degrees in it, etc. I still don't consider that I've mastered it, as there are thousands (or more) that play better than me. I guess I was just imposing my own ideas of mastery regarding dive skills, as opposed to the standards. If you put me in a drysuit and under the ice I would have less mastery of at least some of the skills, considering I don't own a drysuit and have not ice dived.

Which brings up another point. You have 49 years and 2 degrees of clarinet, which I would consider to be a grand master, yet you say that there are others who play better than you. Is that because you are technically correct, you play each note as written, but have no "soul"? Or is it because you are as good as you need to be in any situation you might find yourself in. I feel that the latter is "knowing your limitations". You'll never find me in a cave. I am claustrophobic, and have no desire. Does that mean I don't know how to cave dive? I know all of the theory, I know and can complete all of the drills, I have been taught by many cave instructors, I can handle lines, I have redundant gear, I can sling stages, and I know all of the key words and tricky phrases.

But I can't cave dive.

 

[TMHeimer]

Which brings up another point. You have 49 years and 2 degrees of clarinet, which I would consider to be a grand master, yet you say that there are others who play better than you. Is that because you are technically correct, you play each note as written, but have no "soul"? Or is it because you are as good as you need to be in any situation you might find yourself in. I feel that the latter is "knowing your limitations". You'll never find me in a cave. I am claustrophobic, and have no desire. Does that mean I don't know how to cave dive? I know all of the theory, I know and can complete all of the drills, I have been taught by many cave instructors, I can handle lines, I have redundant gear, I can sling stages, and I know all of the key words and tricky phrases.

But I can't cave dive.

Good point. Answer is I'm as good as I need to be. I make a mistake technically on a rare bases and I'm good enough with soul. The other thousands that play better than me is a result of practising for years at maybe 12 hours a day, compared to my one. Actually, VERY similar to your dive experience compared to mine. I guess I just don't like that word "mastered". As DevonDiver recently said "If I were the King of PADI", I just wouldn't use the word. Almost all of the students I have seen have mastered the skills to be as good as they need to be as OW divers.

 

[boulderjohn]

As DevonDiver recently said "If I were the King of PADI", I just wouldn't use the word.

What word would you use?

The word as it is used by PADI is a commonly used and important part of instructional theory. It comes from a concept developed largely by Benjamin Bloom (of Bloom's Taxonomy fame) called Mastery Learning. If you read the link, you will see that the PADI instructional system that was developed in the 1990s is firmly based on that theory. Mastery Learning is at the heart of current thinking on instruction. It is at the heart of the state content standards movement.

 

[BDSC]

I've seen too many people (myself included) passed out of OW because they managed to do the skills without either panicking or drowning. They passed simply because they were calm. I don't honestly think "smoothly and repeatably, in the manner of an OW student" means "can get through skill without panicking". But people just rarely get failed or remanded for remediation out of OW, unless they just don't finish the class.

So how big of a role does "shop pressure" have on passing students do you think or anyone think? I wonder how often some students would not pass if it were solely left up to the instructor but because it's a benefit to the shop to pass students, and the instructor works for the shop, they just go ahead and pass because like you said, they didn't panic or drown when asked to do a skill.

 

[boulderjohn]

So how big of a role does "shop pressure" have on passing students do you think or anyone think? I wonder how often some students would not pass if it were solely left up to the instructor but because it's a benefit to the shop to pass students, and the instructor works for the shop, they just go ahead and pass because like you said, they didn't panic or drown when asked to do a skill.

In my experience, there is not so much pressure from the shop to pass a student as much as there is unspoken pressure on the instructor to complete the class in the allotted time. Where I instruct now, we rent pool time at the local recreation center. We cannot get in the pool a minute before our allotted time or stay a minute after. If a problem student is making it look like you are going to have trouble getting the whole class done in time, that is where the pressure lies. getting the student the extra time can be a logistical problem, and the instructor will feel that pressure.

The thinking is that the truly skilled instructor has the ability to solve a normal amount of student problems in the amount of time they are scheduled to be in the pool. There is flexibility built into the schedule in the amount of time you give students to swim around and get the feel of buoyancy. The more time you have to do skills because of a problem student, the less time you have for free swimming. If there is a significant problem, you might not get the skills done at all. There are ways to separate the problem student from the rest of the class if you have enough assistants, but dealing with this effectively requires a lot of skill. If you come back to the shop and say "None of the 8 students completed the work today because of a problem student, and we are gong to have to pay for another pool session," the shop may wonder about your organizational skills. If you come back and occasionally say, "Sally had a lot of problems and will need more time," that will be understood and dealt with. If you come back and say something like that after every class, your ability to deal with student problems effectively will be questioned.

As far as students not completing the OW dives successfully, if you have done a real whizbang job in the pool, that should not be a problem.

 

[TMHeimer]

In my experience, there is not so much pressure from the shop to pass a student as much as there is unspoken pressure on the instructor to complete the class in the allotted time. Where I instruct now, we rent pool time at the local recreation center. We cannot get in the pool a minute before our allotted time or stay a minute after. If a problem student is making it look like you are going to have trouble getting the whole class done in time, that is where the pressure lies. getting the student the extra time can be a logistical problem, and the instructor will feel that pressure.

The thinking is that the truly skilled instructor has the ability to solve a normal amount of student problems in the amount of time they are scheduled to be in the pool. There is flexibility built into the schedule in the amount of time you give students to swim around and get the feel of buoyancy. The more time you have to do skills because of a problem student, the less time you have for free swimming. If there is a significant problem, you might not get the skills done at all. There are ways to separate the problem student from the rest of the class if you have enough assistants, but dealing with this effectively requires a lot of skill. If you come back to the shop and say "None of the 8 students completed the work today because of a problem student, and we are gong to have to pay for another pool session," the shop may wonder about your organizational skills. If you come back and occasionally say, "Sally had a lot of problems and will need more time," that will be understood and dealt with. If you come back and say something like that after every class, your ability to deal with student problems effectively will be questioned.

As far as students not completing the OW dives successfully, if you have done a real whizbang job in the pool, that should not be a problem.

Yes, I see that situation at times. Sometimes an instructor will assign a DM to help the student with the problem (assuming it's just one). Other times we monitor the free swim dive time while the instructor helps the individual student.

Maybe I would say "Accomplished the skill to an acceptable OW level" instead of mastered. I was able to do all but a couple of OW skills easily when taking the class, but I never would've considered the word mastered. In 4th grade I "mastered" playing "A" on my clarinet to an acceptable level for elementary band. But I certainly couldn't play it in a fast passage suitable for high school or beyond. So what does mastered really mean? Thus Wookie's OP question. The word for me, has the meaning of being an expert--that you do something pretty much as good as anyone anywhere can do it. "Mastered to a certain level" to me is just different from "mastered".

 

[boulderjohn]

The word for me, has the meaning of being an expert--that you do something pretty much as good as anyone anywhere can do it. "Mastered to a certain level" to me is just different from "mastered".

As I said before, different words have different meanings in different contexts. I just looked up the word "standard" in an online dictionary and found 17 definitions. Each one is correct in the proper context. Each one is incorrect in an improper context.

Let's take the word "theory" as another example. As it is used in common speech, a theory is just some wild idea someone came up with. In science, it means something different. A concept does not rise to the level of theory until clear supporting evidence has been presented to the point that the concept's main idea is considered settled. That is why we have the confusion related to the theory of evolution, with non-scientists thinking that anyone else's opinion is just as acceptable when in the world of science it is not disputed. A scientist who will only use the word "theory" in its true scientific sense may use it in its more common meaning when chatting idly with friends over a point of ale in a tavern.

We have the same problem with "mastery." In the world of education, the definition was settled in accordance with the concept of mastery education--see the link I provided above. The fact that you use a different meaning of mastery in your everyday usage is not relevant to the fact that the word has a special meaning when applied to the concept of mastery learning. The same person can use the word in to mean different things in different contexts.

 

[scubadada]

I'd say nothing is mastered. Under the right, or wrong, circumstances, I would imagine anyone could be challenged to perform any activity. This fact is made clear to me contantly in my diving. Maybe others are considerably more adept or have sufficient experience in all circumstances.

 

[The Chairman]

We have the same problem with "mastery."

This is probably why I use the term "competency". The point of the OW course is not to produce Master Divers, but rather competent ones.

 

[TMHeimer]

As I said before, different words have different meanings in different contexts. I just looked up the word "standard" in an online dictionary and found 17 definitions. Each one is correct in the proper context. Each one is incorrect in an improper context.

Let's take the word "theory" as another example. As it is used in common speech, a theory is just some wild idea someone came up with. In science, it means something different. A concept does not rise to the level of theory until clear supporting evidence has been presented to the point that the concept's main idea is considered settled. That is why we have the confusion related to the theory of evolution, with non-scientists thinking that anyone else's opinion is just as acceptable when in the world of science it is not disputed. A scientist who will only use the word "theory" in its true scientific sense may use it in its more common meaning when chatting idly with friends over a point of ale in a tavern.

We have the same problem with "mastery." In the world of education, the definition was settled in accordance with the concept of mastery education--see the link I provided above. The fact that you use a different meaning of mastery in your everyday usage is not relevant to the fact that the word has a special meaning when applied to the concept of mastery learning. The same person can use the word in to mean different things in different contexts.

Yeah, I understand and agree with all you say here. In defense of my position so to speak, I googled mastered, mastery, mastery of a skill, etc. Most of the definitions had something to do with "command of a subject", "automatic each time", etc. I would think that these ideas would come to mind with many people when hearing the word. But as you point out, many words can be used in different contexts.

---------- Post added May 21st, 2013 at 07:46 PM ----------

I'd say nothing is mastered. Under the right, or wrong, circumstances, I would imagine anyone could be challenged to perform any activity. This fact is made clear to me contantly in my diving. Maybe others are considerably more adept or have sufficient experience in all circumstances.

Agree. But then the word wouldn't exist. Someone pointed out that mastery doesn't have to mean perfection in doing something every single time under every possible circumstance. I would agree with that also-- I would define it more like-- pretty much as good as anyone can do it almost every time... etc.