White lies told by your LDS when you first started

[perpet1]

NetDoc once bubbled...
I teach a very specific protocol... the donor's right hand on the hose, and the recipient's right hand on the donor's right wrist. It makes little difference which they donate and let them determine which is best for them. This works for either donating of the safe second or buddy breathing and beats the heck out of grabbing each other's BC. The left hand is always available to signal or operate the BC and the two divers are still "locked" together.

I agree this is an awesome way to teach it except when they have to do it and they are NOT with somone else you have taught.

I am not going to be holding the octo by the hose if I have to give up my alternate air source. Bet your life I will if I am sharing the same reg but the person is on their own if they have to use the octo so they better know to hold on (to something other then my hand). After all direct posative contact is in their best interest at that point.

Pete


:mean:

 

[perpet1]

MikeFerrara once bubbled...


Well...I don't know about the shops near you but...My Dive Masters can dive trimix because I make it cheap enough. they were able to do the class because I got it for them at 1/3 the going rate. Less if you take into account they didn't need to pay instructor expenses. I set up a local tank inspection class. I am sending them to a reg repair class. Now these folks are good and they work hard and I compensate them the best I can. I don't force a new DM to buy new gear to work for me but on the other hand I have never found a NEW DM who came in off the street good enough for me to use. I MUST TRAIN them. Now these DMs of mine are saving hundreds probably more like thousands a year. If they can't see their way to use the gear I sell (when it fits their needs of course) then they can go somewhere else. I am the guy paying for the party. everyone is having a ball on MY NICKLE.

Whether any of you like it or not instructors and Divemasters are billboards. that's why the manufacturers give Key person discounts. What business sense does it make to pay someone to stand around your classes advertisng for someone else.

But equipment isn't all...I also expect their behavior, skill and attitudes to be an advertisement for me and my shop. Pardon me but I will decide what kind of image my shop, it's gear and it's teaching staff will present to the public. They can fit in with the overall scheme or they can go somewhere else. They can be on the team and be an asset or not.

I fully agree with you ans ALL your points.

I did work for a dive shop that was not as thaughtful as you. They profited greatly (until they went out of business) on their staff.

If all LDS were are good as yours sounds then the industry would be better off.

 

[diverjed]

Quest once bubbled...
______________________________________

"Only Asst. Instructors or higher are allowed to dive solo"


Yeah right! The first thirty some dives I did in my career I did solo (within reason of course) because at the time, no dive buddies, so it was either that or don't dive at all-fudge that!

That's also like all that quarry Bull****! 'You can dive solo if you're an instructor'

And now I believe they are starting to offer solo diving courses. Which is fine, I am sure you could pick up some helpful info, but I don't believe it should start an enforced precedent: 'Diving solo today? Let me see your certification!'

 

[diverjed]

Somebody help me out if you know anything about this procedure, like the name and what's involved:

Last year, 2002, i took my tanks in for the annual VIP inspection to my LDS.

When I came in to retrieve them a couple weeks later, the charge per VIP per tank was at least double. when I inquired as to why, the LDS owner claimed there was a new procedure out for conducting these VIP's (so help me I can't recall the name of it) using some modern new technology that resulted in a more thorough inspection of your tank. Naturally the costs would be a lot higher (I think it was 30 some bucks). I had never heard of it before, but that doesn't mean anything......

....further he claimed that this new 'procedure' was becoming wide-spread and more standard in the industry and that in some instances if you went to fill your tank at another shop, you may be rejected if you can't offer proof that this new procedure was conducted on your tank.

A little skeptical, but what was I gonna say? He's the expert in that, not I.

However, this past spring, 2003, this supposed new procedure was not conducted during my annual VIP, and the charges returned to normal, about half.

Does anybody have any further insight into this??

 

[diverjed]

..here's another one.

as most of you Sherwood Reg owners know, there is a dry bleed system.

While noting this on a recent wreck dive this season with a rep from my LDS, he stated:

'the only way to resolve this is by getting another regulator other than Sherwood...'

Riiiiigghhhhttt!

 

[plsdiver4377]

I was told that a tank that had 3300 psi (operational pressure) in it had the exact same available cubic feet of air that one with say 2700 psi . This statement was made because I was griping about a short fill. I went back later and corrected this misinformation, I was also told that a standard AL80 was 'not' positively buoyant when empty. I politely asked him if he minded that I drop one of his tanks in the pool both empty and full se what happens, he declined the experiment. Since then however I have gotten very good service with no crap.

 

[Lead_carrier]

diverjed once bubbled...
Last year, 2002, i took my tanks in for the annual VIP inspection to my LDS.

When I came in to retrieve them a couple weeks later, the charge per VIP per tank was at least double. when I inquired as to why, the LDS owner claimed there was a new procedure out for conducting these VIP's (so help me I can't recall the name of it) using some modern new technology that resulted in a more thorough inspection of your tank. Naturally the costs would be a lot higher (I think it was 30 some bucks). I had never heard of it before, but that doesn't mean anything......

....further he claimed that this new 'procedure' was becoming wide-spread and more standard in the industry and that in some instances if you went to fill your tank at another shop, you may be rejected if you can't offer proof that this new procedure was conducted on your tank.

They are probably doing a Visual Inspection Plus. This is done only to aluminum tanks because some of the older tanks were made from an alloy that was prone to cracking at the neck. It was brought into the industry to detect hairline cracks, that aren't easily visible, during the annual visual inspection. Your LDS owner is correct in that a lot of places will not fill them without the VIS plus sticker. I have actually found a couple of tanks with cracks this way. The price the first year was probably an attempt to recover the cost of the machine and now that it's paid for he'll lower the cost back closer to normal.

 

[Lead_carrier]

plsdiver4377 once bubbled...
I was told that a tank that had 3300 psi (operational pressure) in it had the exact same available cubic feet of air that one with say 2700 psi . This statement was made because I was griping about a short fill. I went back later and corrected this misinformation, I was also told that a standard AL80 was 'not' positively buoyant when empty. I politely asked him if he minded that I drop one of his tanks in the pool both empty and full se what happens, he declined the experiment. Since then however I have gotten very good service with no crap.

I believe I'd watch this bunch closely. Sounds like they are a few pounds short of a full fill themselves. I new a guy that argued his AL 63 had the same amount of air as an AL 80 because they both had 3000 psi. He was not a happy camper when we proved that he had less air.

 

[diverjed]

Lead_carrier once bubbled...


They are probably doing a Visual Inspection Plus. This is done only to aluminum tanks because some of the older tanks were made from an alloy that was prone to cracking at the neck. It was brought into the industry to detect hairline cracks, that aren't easily visible, during the annual visual inspection. Your LDS owner is correct in that a lot of places will not fill them without the VIS plus sticker. I have actually found a couple of tanks with cracks this way. The price the first year was probably an attempt to recover the cost of the machine and now that it's paid for he'll lower the cost back closer to normal.

Great info! Thanks.

 

[Genesis]

is only appropriate for 6351-alloy tanks.

A small number (about a dozen) of the 6351-alloy tanks have failed explosively, usually while being filled, and as a consequence operators are understandably concerned that they might die while putting air in your tanks.

No tank made in the last 10 years, none made of steel (obviously), and none ever made by Catalina used the potentially-dangerous alloy.

NO 6061-alloy tank has failed explosively. None. There is no justification for demanding a VIP+ on 6061-alloy tanks.

On 6061 and even some 6351 alloy tanks, it has been found that the machine occasionally registers "false positives", usually caused by insufficient cleaning of the threads. Luxfer has been offering free replacements for tanks that fail a VIS+, and has found that an awful lot of them returned to them actually have no neck cracks and the operator of the VIS+ machine simply did the test incorrectly (usually by failing to properly clean the threads before using the machine.)

The machine doesn't work at all on steel tanks.

If you're being forced to get a VIP+ on a 6061-alloy tank you are being ripped off (assuming he is charging extra for it.) If you are being forced to get a VIP+ on a STEEL tank, then the shop owner is either criminally stupid, criminally dishonest, or both.

If you have a VIP+ fail (but not the regular visual) on a 6351-alloy tank, do not condemn it until you take it for a second opinion. As noted, there are a lot of tanks being condemned due to false positives on this test, usually due to contamination on the threads. Note that unlike a failed hydro, the shop owner has no authority under the law to damage the tank or keep it if it fails a visual (or VIS+) inspection; if he does he is liable to you for a replacement.

The entire VIS+ thing has become yet another LDS lie and scam, as some have started demanding VIS+ inspections on ALL tanks or they will refuse to fill them, and there is even some pressure BETWEEN shops to collusively adopt these policies (particularly in South Florida.)

While there is a legitimate safety issue with older 6351-alloy tanks, and thus there is a valid reason to demand such a higher standard for tanks made of that alloy (all of which are more than 10 years old anyway) there is none for 6061 tanks, and none for steels.

I have my own compressor and do not fill people's tanks for money. I do, however, fill my own tanks all the time, and occasionally will fill a friend's for grins and giggles (as opposed to for money.) My personal policy is that I will not fill or dive any tank that is made of 6351 alloy, irrespective of what sticker is on it. Then again I like the contents of my garage, and I also like all of my limbs attached to my body - and desire that none of the above is scattered by a tank explosion. I also don't overfill - at all - although I know some people do, particularly with steels.

Aluminum tanks are cheap enough that if we scrapped all the 6351-alloy tanks now we still would have gotten outstanding service from them, based on their per-year cost.