Who is the Apple of the scuba world?

[sardiverdan]

This is like asking what truck is better a Ford or a Chevy. Everyone on here will have their favs and bash the others. For me Halcyon/Scubapro/DUI/Suunto is the gear I use.

 

[danvolker]

I'm newly certified and am looking to start buying my own gear. The are so many manufacturers I don't know where to begin. Is there a manufacturer or two that would be considered the Apple of the scuba world? I.e makes amazing products, easy to use, solid, reliable, they really think through how the user will interact with the product, stands by their products and continually innovates?

My limited experience with five or six companies so far makes me think the people who work at the companies never use their own products, and just crank out stuff with no thought about the design or purpose.

Like DevonDiver and several others reponded, I would suggest Halcyon as the most "Apple-like" in the dive industry.
Back in the late 90's, George Irvine, Jarrod Jablonski, and several other WKPP members were calling up each of the major BC manufacturers ( including Scubapro and Diverite of course) and asking for a backplate and wing system, along DIR guidelines...and this would have had over 100 orders for it immediately...so you would think it would have been something the big bc guys would have considered....but at the time, they felt the dive industry was not moving in that direction, and they had no interest in going with the "function-based requests" of the WKPP people.
Robert Carmichael, owner of Brownies 3rd Lung ( and a WKPP team member), had his own little R&D department at his Brownies Factory in Fort Lauderdale. Robert had always been a "tinkerer", and he really believed the spec on a bp/wing system the WKPP was asking for, was something that had to be followed....so, Robert took the WKPP spec and had his team at Brownies "create" the system being asked for. The WKPP loved the function of Carmichael's bp/wing, and how modular it was for all of the diving a WKPP member would be involved in. After the rapid demand for more units for team members quickly morphed into demand by friends of team members, Carmichael created the Halcyon brand name, and went on to keep improving the system with WKPP team feedback.

Function was everthing. The one color ( black) was in stark contrast to the dive industry big boys who were busy "busting out" their radical new bright colors and bigger pockets and basic "Supersize me" approach to "pretending" they were selling so much more than last year's model.
At the time, ONLY Halcyon was trying to meet the required functions of DIR, or really, of technical diving in general. If you saw { today--like in a "museum of stupid"} some of the huge floppy vest, double tank system BC's, the dangerous solutions they created to fix issues created by the BC itself....the massive convoluted logic that led to their "functions", it really would have to make you either laugh or cry.

This was the world back in the late 90's, and Halcyon alone set about changing this.
We put the word out about the new Halcyon system back then, on the cavers list and tech diver lists, as well as rec.scuba....insane flame wars would follow, the likes of which scubaboard regulars may not even be able to imagine
But at the first DEMA show Halcyon showed up for..their first year.....this was a treat.
With a microscopic budget, we ( I was Marketing Director of Halcyon back then) were about to go "toe-to-toe" with the big BC mfg's, who were basically still spitting on our ideas of function in a tech rig that was also perfect for recreational diving with a single tank. We had a very small area...and several hundred yards away you could see a Car Dealership sized little city with Scubapro signs all over it, the same for Mares, Dive Rite abit smaller but still way bigger than us, and in general, there was a huge staff at each of these mfg areas, expecting to be flooded with interest in their new gear...They had massive ad campaigns, the best brochures, and pretty female models to look hot in their stuff.
We were dressed in black, to go with the Halcyon gear, and we were expecting "some attention" each day, but we were not prepared for what happened.
Within minutes after the start, we had the largest line to look at gear of any of the BC mfg's. It got bigger and bigger as the day progressed, and we were running out of our newly printed brochures, and we were soon having to make xerox copies to give out, and this was hard to keep up with.

The DEMA show was big for Halcyon, and it was a scary wakeup call to a few of the big BC companies. They suddenly realized that there WAS a large group of divers ouyt there, even in the recreational diving realm, that were looking for more than new colors and more attachment straps. It would take them years to do anything about this....but today, there are several OTHER good choices in a bp/wing system.

But as far as who the game changer was, this really was Halcyon. They really should be your "Apple", for the purposes of this thread...and people should know that Halcyon really did do things none of the other mfg's were willing or able to think about.
Regards,
DanV

 

[Roko]

Thanks for posting that, Dan. It was interesting to read about the beginnings of H, a good underdog story....

I couldn't help but thinking, though, that H would have been the Hero in this video, (except dressed in all Black), and the mindless droves would have all been in multi-coloured scuba gear...

YouTube - Apple - 1984

 

[Cinemaniac]

This is like asking what truck is better a Ford or a Chevy. Everyone on here will have their favs and bash the others. For me Halcyon/Scubapro/DUI/Suunto is the gear I use.

I don't think asking this question is the same as which is better Ford or Chevy. Neither company has anything significantly different to offer in terms of products or innovations. Maybe Toyota vs Ford? Toyota was the first to innovate with a true hybrid like the Prius, Apple did it with things like Mac OS (first commercial window-based OS) the ipod, itunes, ipad, iphone, etc. Everyone else in these markets are merely also rans. Of course some of their competitors may actually do it better in the end, that is why competition and innovation is good for us as consumers.

Seems like the BP/W design and even of DIR is very analogous to Steve Jobs ideas about computers for the rest of us.

 

[natew]

Hmm.. I can't think of anything. But what really comes to mind is that apple really isn't about innovation at all, or creating unique products. They are the type of company that takes someone elses idea, modifies it a little bit to make it more attractive or easier to use and markets the hell out of it convincing the less tech savvy consumer that theirs is the only product on the market that does anything like this despite being a blatant rip off of many other products and ideas that existed decades before.

That said, the closest company to that might be Oceanic? But that is a hard call to make, because there are so many parts and so many companies involved. That great regular made by company x might not be so great if it didn't include a miflex hose, or swivel connector or something else made by some other company. You also have the problem that most manufacturers have one specialty that they may be better at than others. Zeagle might qualify as one of the most creative/innovative as far as BC's are concerned, and I think Mares has the best designed regulators making use of a wide range of materials and innovative designs. Of course the whole thing is very subjective anyway so really you're just getting opinions.

The bottom line shouldn't be "who is the best apple like scuba company"; but does the gear work, is it reliable, and are YOU comfortable using it. You could spend $5000 in gear from whoever you believe, or whoever you are told, is the most "apple" like company in scuba and find out that you are completely unhappy with it and uncomfortable in it. You could then turn around and spend $1000 on gear and find out that it is absolutely the best set of gear in the world for YOU to wear.

 

[Roko]

Maybe the proper analogy is use the appropriate gear for the diving YOU'RE doing.......

I'm a Linux geek on my home computers when just bumming around on the internet. Doing engineering things, I need windows because all my software runs on windows. My last job was a bit Apple Crazy, so I was forced to use a Apple for office stuff (and then switch to windows to do my engineering work)

Same applies to dive gear, not one brand is the best, and not one brand necessarily has everything that is the best... My regs, computer, BP/W, drysuit, wetsuit are all different brands.. Each was what *I* evaluated to be the best for *MY* diving, which means it's not necessarily the best for someone else, even if they do the exact same dives as I do. I won't thumb my nose up at them for choosing something different. (unless they use split fins )

 

[danvolker]

I don't think asking this question is the same as which is better Ford or Chevy. Neither company has anything significantly different to offer in terms of products or innovations. Maybe Toyota vs Ford? Toyota was the first to innovate with a true hybrid like the Prius, Apple did it with things like Mac OS (first commercial window-based OS) the ipod, itunes, ipad, iphone, etc. Everyone else in these markets are merely also rans. Of course some of their competitors may actually do it better in the end, that is why competition and innovation is good for us as consumers.

Seems like the BP/W design and even of DIR is very analogous to Steve Jobs ideas about computers for the rest of us.

I think suggesting that DIR belongs here will ruffle way to many feathers. Realistically, DIR was just a compilation of lots of really good ideas that good divers had been using for many years...the need for DIR was partially about counteracting what was going as mis-information on diving practices and gear needs...and it was partially about gaining an agreed on mindset for a team of divers--this to make them safer and have more fun on an exploration or adventure dive. In a sense, DIR was more about getting rid of a lot of bad ideas, and just allowing the good ones to remain and be passed on to other divers..as the way to dive together.

Example needs for DIR were tech diver deaths due to a deep air dive to 260 feet, wearing heavy wetsuit and using heavy steel doubles and steel stages...and then requiring a massive double bladder BC for sufficient lift at the bottom....There was also the "personal best" idea of seeing how deep you could go on an air dive....There was the idea that as my buddy, your gear could be anything you wanted it to be ( hence the issue of buddies not knowing how to deal with the equipment problems of their buddy)...There was the training agency foolishness about having a special pouch to stuff the octo reg in that you would donate to an out of air buddy.....the list of industry related misinformation about what was safe, was really scary. There had always been smart solutions for most of these dim witted practices, but the industry and advertising, had begun to de-evolve the thinking divers were sharing. DIR was needed to fix this, but it was weeding out, more than creating.

I think most of the anti-DIR people would not argue too much with this.

If you were pro-DIR, as I obviously am, you might would go further about how the sum of the parts put together into DIR, actually did create something really needed, and it was in a sense, new...as an entire system..not just a hodge podge of ideas, some good, some bad. Moreover, it began a new evolution in diving behavior and gear. It COULD NOT have happened without many of the great ideas of people who created parts of it well before DIR..guys like William "Hogarth" Main. It also probably could not have happened if not for all the really bad information and gear that the less scrupulous in the dive industry were promoting

Regards,
DanV

 

[Thalassamania]

I still use a Tekna mask and Farallon (Tekna's predecessor) fins and snorkel.

 

[knowone]

Yes. Excellent to hear about the process required to get necessary products and mindset out there from someone that was involved.
danvolker. Who went down the road to get the scubapro buckles that are sewn into some of my Halcyon stuff?

 

[danvolker]

Yes. Excellent to hear about the process required to get necessary products and mindset out there from someone that was involved.
danvolker. Who went down the road to get the scubapro buckles that are sewn into some of my Halcyon stuff?

Scubapro always did make good buckles

Regards,
Dan V