Why Aren't Dive Tables/Computers Customizable?

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Hello HJefferyM:

Dive Tables

Tables are designed or developed using actual dive data, and are collected from thousands of divers. What are most valuable are those dives in which DCS actually developed. Thousands of safe dives are of less value after a point.

The general starting point is the US Navy dive tables and modifications are made to these. [ USN tables are actually for decompression diving and only the no decompression limits [NDL] are utilized.] For recreational diving, the NDLs are reduced to yield lower tissue nitrogen loads because of the reduced bottom time allowed.

Table Physiology

Dive tables are not actually based on solid physiological principles. While they all have a model in mind, this is based more upon the ease of calculation [i.e., a simple algorithm] that exact anatomy and physiology.

Since the tables are derived from dive data, they cover a wide range of divers with respect to age, gender, body mass index, physical conditioning, etc. The “safe” dives are selected from the data [i.e., maximum depth and bottom time] and tables are derived from this. From the bottom time and depth, a set of NDLs are made.

It is purely a statistical process that requires a large database and a computer. The physiology and anatomy of divers is incorporated because actual divers are used. Since the majority of divers are below the age of fifty, they will weight the database to younger individuals. Older divers might consider being more cautious. The same is true for overweight divers.

What is always important to remember is those dive tables are constructed with considerable safety margins. This is not to imply that sloppiness should be considered acceptable in decompression.

Table Testing

Many and varied individuals were used by me when I tested the PADI Recreational Dive Planner. We did not see any evidence of more bubble formation [from the Doppler ultrasound bubble detector] in the older or heavier test subjects. The degree of conservatism [= safety] in the tables would not allow us to “fine tune” an analysis for these factors.

In decompression to altitude, considerable greater gas loads can be examined, and , even here, age and fitness effects do not show up with the sample size used.

What Should You Know?

1. Gas uptake and elimination is considered symmetrical in tissues. You should experience moderate exertion during the dive and some activity back on the boat. Do not swim below and then lie down during the surface interval. The heart rates will be so different that nitrogen exchange will not be symmetrical.

2. Know that decompression bubbles actually grow from “seeds” [microbubbles] in tissues. These are constantly present in your body. Do not add more nuclei [or enlarge those already present] by lifting, straining, or performing other heavy musculoskeletal tasks.

3. Neurological DCS can develop for bubbles entering the arterial circulation for the venous side. Prevent this from occurring by not performing Valsalva-like maneuvers topside. This are such things as momentary breath hold actions such as coughing, straining while lifting, etc.

Dr Deco :doctor:
 
Can you please clarify this statement, I am assuming you mean "rest". "Do not swim below and then lie down during the surface interval. The heart rates will be so different that nitrogen exchange will not be symmetrical."

Normally would I be safe to assume, that if you are prepping for a 2nd dive, and doing some normal activity to maintain normal heart rate, you would be fine.
 
Maybe a glove with something like a pulse oxymeter/doppler sensor in it? It could be linked directly to a DC worn on the wrist.

Just an idea....
How about a submersible blood gas monitor designed to track Nitrogen loading? :crafty:

As mentioned above, dive tables can be adjusted by adding theoretical depth to a dive plan - not customized to fit your personal body now, but with extra margins. Dive puters can be as well. I don't care for the "conservative" brands that simply penalize the diver by reducing dive time remaining from accepted safe standards; so many divers who buy those wish they hadn't and sometime end up ignoring them. The diver him/herself can build that in...
When I hit the red zone on mine, I plan on a half-depth stop, slow ascents, and using all the air I have left on the 10-20 ft stop to work my puter down in the yellow as much as possible. If I hit red, I never get it back to green on that dive.
06194.jpg

If you want more conservatism, ascend when you get halfway thru the yellow, or - when the green is full altho that's a bit much for me.​
I saw a couple on our Cozumel boat diving Nitrox "on air tables, for extra margins" on a 2-tank boat trip last week. I thot it was a waste of $40/trip for the two of them but not a problem other than they did not have MOD warnings on the deeper dives.
 
Huh?

Hey Dr. Deco...I'm confused. Is everything I do on a dive boat going to get me bent?

"1. Gas uptake and elimination is considered symmetrical in tissues. You should experience moderate exertion during the dive and some activity back on the boat. Do not swim below and then lie down during the surface interval. The heart rates will be so different that nitrogen exchange will not be symmetrical."

You mean I shouldn't put my feet up, relax, and drink lots of water on the 6-pack during my surface interval? Should I get out and swim laps around the boat during my surface interval?

Also, I am completely at a loss to understand what you mean by "symmetrical." Can you explain that?

"2. Know that decompression bubbles actually grow from “seeds” [microbubbles] in tissues. These are constantly present in your body. Do not add more nuclei [or enlarge those already present] by lifting, straining, or performing other heavy musculoskeletal tasks."

You mean like climbing a dive ladder with your gear on or moving a tank or putting your BC with integrated weights on a new tank?

"3. Neurological DCS can develop for bubbles entering the arterial circulation for the venous side. Prevent this from occurring by not performing Valsalva-like maneuvers topside. This are such things as momentary breath hold actions such as coughing, straining while lifting, etc."

And how am I supposed to prevent an involuntary action like a cough? Again, you are describing a lot of stuff that goes on on a typical dive boat.

What up?

DandyDon...I have my Elite T3 set to alert me when I hit the first bar in the yellow. It's never gone off. I don't do deco!
 
DandyDon...I have my Elite T3 set to alert me when I hit the first bar in the yellow. It's never gone off. I don't do deco!
Cool. :thumb: My home bud didn't realize why his did a few days ago. He's such a vacation diver, happy to just follow the DM. I talk, he listens, and I hope - but sometimes I have to grab his console and check. I explained later that he went into deco. :silly: He also kept giving me a 100# signal on dives for 1,000#.
 
Huh?

Hey Dr. Deco...I'm confused. Is everything I do on a dive boat going to get me bent?

"1. Gas uptake and elimination is considered symmetrical in tissues. You should experience moderate exertion during the dive and some activity back on the boat. Do not swim below and then lie down during the surface interval. The heart rates will be so different that nitrogen exchange will not be symmetrical."

You mean I shouldn't put my feet up, relax, and drink lots of water on the 6-pack during my surface interval? Should I get out and swim laps around the boat during my surface interval?

Also, I am completely at a loss to understand what you mean by "symmetrical." Can you explain that?

He means the theoretical model assumes "symmetrical" on and off gassing...the rates will be the same. If you get on the boat and go to sleep your off gassing rate will likely be slower than your on gassing rate.

"2. Know that decompression bubbles actually grow from “seeds” [microbubbles] in tissues. These are constantly present in your body. Do not add more nuclei [or enlarge those already present] by lifting, straining, or performing other heavy musculoskeletal tasks."

You mean like climbing a dive ladder with your gear on or moving a tank or putting your BC with integrated weights on a new tank?

In a word...yes. He's just saying that if you are close to having a DSC hit then this type of thing can push you over the edge.

"3. Neurological DCS can develop for bubbles entering the arterial circulation for the venous side. Prevent this from occurring by not performing Valsalva-like maneuvers topside. This are such things as momentary breath hold actions such as coughing, straining while lifting, etc."

And how am I supposed to prevent an involuntary action like a cough? Again, you are describing a lot of stuff that goes on on a typical dive boat.

Again, he's just expaining the factors involved in decompression theory rather than suggesting that you not cough if you have to cough.

I'm sure he will answer your questions at some point but but I'm here now and will take a stab at it.:D

The idea is if you do a dive that you know is pushing the boundaries for whatever reason then don't do a extreme dive and then climb up a cliff at the end of that dive...do that dive as a boat dive rather than a shore dive.

If you push a dive in hot temps/water...don't decompress in a freezing room while sleeping. Try and keep the on gassing conditions similar during the off gassing period.

He's giving you the benefit of his experience and explaining things you won't hear about in your OW training.
 
Ok, here's my question on the symmetry issue:

I go to say...66fsw on air, stay for 20 minutes and do a normal ascent. Total dive time: 30 minutes. I surface with two or three "nitrogen bars" on my Elite T3. Assuming I was at 3ATM at 66fsw, should it then take 90 minutes for those bars to dissapear at 1ATM? 60 minutes? Am I not getting this symmetry thing?

Confused....
 
Ok, here's my question on the symmetry issue:

I go to say...66fsw on air, stay for 20 minutes and do a normal ascent. Total dive time: 30 minutes. I surface with two or three "nitrogen bars" on my Elite T3. Assuming I was at 3ATM at 66fsw, should it then take 90 minutes for those bars to dissapear at 1ATM? 60 minutes? Am I not getting this symmetry thing?

Confused....
That's a personal call in a way, and perhaps a better question for the computers forum maybe - but I use my Dive Plan function of my dive puter to see what's left for me. Your careful attitude of staying out of the yellow is foreign to my experiences tho, so I have no idea what my Oceanic puter would say. I have no fear of going into yellow; I just like to exit the water in the green...
I do a one minute stop at half depth if I have been deeper than 70 ft;

Then a 3 minute stop around 15 ft;

Then a 1 minute stop on the surface before any exertion - I think Dr.Deco calls this the hidden safety stop.

And I work at hydration, the night before diving, the morning before, and throughout the day.​
Anyway, I think your Dive Plan function would give you the info you wanted, depending on your next dive's depth and all. Many skippers impose a one hour break regardless, and 90 minutes seems to clear almost anything, but if I am diving Nitrox 80s, I will feel ready to go back as soon as I change tanks and get a drink, in part because I am some an air hog. Now if I am on Nitrox 100s, different; Nitrox 130s - much different, as even I can get into heavy yellow and maybe red on those.
 
I'm sure irt has already been mentioned that many computers are... IF you read the manual.
 
One of the things I was surprized to learn during dive training was that everyone, no matter what their size, sex, age or physical characteristics, uses the same non-customizable dive tables.

Given the same dive profile, the same computer would give my wife and I (Me: 49, 6'3" 240/She: 39, 5'0", 112) the same nitrogen tissue bar load with the same time to desat.

Common sense would lead me to believe that she and I might off gas at significantly different rates. Am I wrong about this? Why can't these tables/tissue loading models be customized to individual physical characteristics?

You take the time & risk of coming up with 'customizable dive tables' for you & let me know what you find......maybe I'll use them---& maybe I won't----:D...but for now, I'm sticking with 'what got me here'
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/perdix-ai/

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