Why do you think LDS should change their sales approach!

[Z Gear]

I had gotten a good post on my last thread about " Is it good that Scuba Diving isn't popular"? I believe one of the responses I got from member Eric Sedzkey deserved its own thread. Because it got to the heart of the matter, the importance of the LDS (local Dive shop) I believe is a very important factor as to how this can change the current situation of flat line growth. Most dive shops and the industry in general is tired of low flat line growth. Eric brought up some very good points on which the local dive shops should consider doing. Eric also brought up another good point on another response on the actual location of the LDS and what they should do on the outside to attract customers. Here is what Eric pointed out as far as Sales Training that I think all LDS OWNERS, Manager/staff should see an perhaps try and implement something in this area!

Eric writes
"The only reason I'm keen on trained sales people was because I tried my hand at car sales back in the late 80's.
They used to send us to sales schools/workshops to learn how to be a saleperson. You don't just stick somebody in there to collect money, it's not a corn dog stand, it takes a lot more than that. It's almost like acting class. I would actually recommend to anybody intrersted in becoming a proffesional salesperson to take some acting classes, it can't hurt it can only help. They teach you how to be animated and you learn to see what you look and sound like (which can be an eye opener).
They also teach you what to look for in people, to read body language, to recognize when people are getting uncomfortable or many other emotions, and most of all when to shut up!"


Tell us why you think this makes sense or why this might not make sense for you.If it is a good idea or why you would possibly not consider doing this.

It makes total sense to me, how about you!

I especially want to hear from LDS owner or staff. What keeping them from doing this?

Frank G
www.zgearinc.com

 

[RJP]

The down side is that acting classes teach you to talk, but they don't teach the most important skill in selling.

[video=youtube;KL6tv_jerAk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KL6tv_jerAk[/video]

 

[smoothfin]

Not a bad idea, sales classes. Always nice to visit a dive shop where the owner/staff pay some attention to me, but it's even better when they know the business and try to give me the best value for my money instead of just trying to get as much money as possible out of me regardless of what I need or want. I've had some very good experiences with some dive shops in my area of the last couple of years in terms of very good service and getting the best value for my money. I'm more impressed by that than by a polished sales routine. And follow-up communication means a lot too, like when I'm waiting on gear to be serviced or for a piece of equipment to come in.

 

[TSandM]

There is definitely more to sales than standing there, and there is more to being a salesman than just taking a class. Some people are "people people" and are good at those kinds of interactions. Others of us emphatically are not.

I spent some time a couple of decades back as a sales rep for a saddle line. I really liked the product and believed in the concept. People contacted ME because they were interested in it, and my job was to go out and help them try it out, and convince them that they should buy one. I was a miserable flop. I don't have the instincts of a good salesman at all, and worse, I turn out to have a baseline moral objection to persuading people to do anything they aren't already sure they should do.

 

[RJP]

I turn out to have a baseline moral objection to persuading people to do anything they aren't already sure they should do.

Look at it this way...

The best sales people help customers identify and solve problems.

 

[redacted]

Look at it this way...

The best sales people help customers identify and solve problems.

Unfortunately, the top problem many sales people are trying to solve is that of getting the customer's wallet out and open.

 

[tbone1004]

I think the difference between a dive shop sales guy and most other industries, but we'll use cars since you brought it up, is that in car sales you are trying to upsell to get the biggest commission and keep them from going to your competitor. Where the dive shops have the advantage is that even if there are competing shops in the area, many of them will have the same lines of products. There's only so many, and while there are generally Scubapro shops, and Aqualung shops, and the two tend not to overlap, quite a few will have Atomic, Dive Rite, etc.

Biggest problem I've seen is that so few of the people in the stores actually know anything about the products. Why should I buy the Mk17 over the Mk25 if you're in a Scubapro shop. Well they might know that one has a 5 port swivel turret and is a piston so flows more air, but they may not know the advantages of the environmental sealing in the Mk17 if the diver is diving in the winter, or is doing a lot of ocean diving where properly rinsing a piston regulator is of the utmost importance. Shop sells Aqualung and Dive Rite, what makes the Aqualung regulators worth more than the Dive Rites, most of them will push to Aqualung because the brand is old and the regulators are more expensive so they must be better.... Also helps that they make more money by selling the Aqualungs

Most recreational instructors and shop staff are utterly incompetent at gear sales because they have no earthly idea why certain things work or why certain gear may be better than others. There's nothing wrong with jacket bc's, but if you're going to be spending $700 on a rig, you want to know why. My biggest beef in the training agencies is that you can become an instructor without taking any sort of technical diving classes. When you are trained in technical diving it opens you up to a whole new world of the how and why we make certain gear choices, and if that was a requirement, I guarandamntee you that most instructors would move to backplate and wing type setups *doesn't have to be hard plates, could be Transpacs, or whatever* because they are cheaper in the long run to buy and maintain than normal recreational setups, they have to buy less rigs because they fit more divers, and the rigs are much higher quality. The downfall to this is that means that they can't have their customers "progress" and buy more gear, and then they make less money on that and the lower dollar contribution generally present in technical gear.

guy emailed me the other day asking about a bunch of gear that his shop told him to buy. He's in Canada and wants to go through ice and wreck diving now, and eventually cave.

shop recommended scubapro mk25/S600's. Great regs, but not one I would take ice diving, and for the cost I'd rather buy Atomics that are much higher quality if I was going piston, but recommended the Apeks DST or Hog D3 to him which are sealed so will be less maintenance for him, and cheaper to buy. Apeks is $150 cheaper than SP, Hog D3 doubles set is the same price as just the first and second stage. Of course they're going to want to sell scubapro vs Hog, they make more money.

Recommended Halcyon Eclipse, great rig but he was concerned about buying good gear but not breaking the bank, shop is also a DSS dealer, but of course they recommend Halcyon because they make more money off of it. DSS is $450, Halcyon is $750.

Most are motivated by $$$, they have little concern for selling the best equipment because it means they aren't going to have repeat sales from that guy, same exact reason PADI has expanded into so many courses and requires specialties, it has nothing to do with producing better divers, but everything to do with getting the most amount of money into the shops and their pockets. It sucks, but it is a horribly dishonest industry we live in. That is the reason you see reputable shops like Cave Adventurers, Dive Right in Scuba, Northeast Scuba Supply, etc getting business from people that have never met them. I called Mike at DRiS looking for a new drysuit. "Mike, need a new suit, cave diving, light wreck diving. What are you recommending and what suit are you using now since you have the pick of the litter?" I get a suit that is on the cheaper side of things but is built to the same quality as the big boys. He could have very easily told me to get a Santi and I would gladly have spend $4k instead of $2k on a suit, but he told me it wasn't worth double the money. Edd does the same stuff, that's why although he is a Dive Rite and Hollis dealer, both of which are much better for his pocket than Hog, he sells a boat load of Hog regulators, they're a better value for the customer, and he gets a lot of guys coming back to him because of it. John does the same thing. These aren't normal shops, they are run by very competent divers who know what they like and there is a reason for all of it. None of them buy into the hype of the "next best thing" and are never pushy about trying to upsell you into junk that you don't need. It means less money for them directly from me, but it means that I tell people to call them when they need stuff because they aren't going to steer them wrong. That is what is lost by most of the recreational shops and is a huge reason that while I was in Raleigh and was in close proximity to 6 dive shops *pre Air Hogs for reference*, I almost never went into them. I went into 4 different ones once each. Two were to get air fills for my OW class, one was to conduct a sidemount clinic for their dive club, and the other was to buy some valve plugs that some guy was selling and just happened to work for them. All of my business went elsewhere because these shops were pushy into trying to get me to take classes and buy stuff that I didn't need and it pushed me away, so instead of getting a little bit of business here and there, they got nothing.

 

[Z Gear]

I think the difference between a dive shop sales guy and most other industries, but we'll use cars since you brought it up, is that in car sales you are trying to upsell to get the biggest commission and keep them from going to your competitor. Where the dive shops have the advantage is that even if there are competing shops in the area, many of them will have the same lines of products. There's only so many, and while there are generally Scubapro shops, and Aqualung shops, and the two tend not to overlap, quite a few will have Atomic, Dive Rite, etc.

Biggest problem I've seen is that so few of the people in the stores actually know anything about the products. Why should I buy the Mk17 over the Mk25 if you're in a Scubapro shop. Well they might know that one has a 5 port swivel turret and is a piston so flows more air, but they may not know the advantages of the environmental sealing in the Mk17 if the diver is diving in the winter, or is doing a lot of ocean diving where properly rinsing a piston regulator is of the utmost importance. Shop sells Aqualung and Dive Rite, what makes the Aqualung regulators worth more than the Dive Rites, most of them will push to Aqualung because the brand is old and the regulators are more expensive so they must be better.... Also helps that they make more money by selling the Aqualungs

Most recreational instructors and shop staff are utterly incompetent at gear sales because they have no earthly idea why certain things work or why certain gear may be better than others. There's nothing wrong with jacket bc's, but if you're going to be spending $700 on a rig, you want to know why. My biggest beef in the training agencies is that you can become an instructor without taking any sort of technical diving classes. When you are trained in technical diving it opens you up to a whole new world of the how and why we make certain gear choices, and if that was a requirement, I guarandamntee you that most instructors would move to backplate and wing type setups *doesn't have to be hard plates, could be Transpacs, or whatever* because they are cheaper in the long run to buy and maintain than normal recreational setups, they have to buy less rigs because they fit more divers, and the rigs are much higher quality. The downfall to this is that means that they can't have their customers "progress" and buy more gear, and then they make less money on that and the lower dollar contribution generally present in technical gear.

guy emailed me the other day asking about a bunch of gear that his shop told him to buy. He's in Canada and wants to go through ice and wreck diving now, and eventually cave.

shop recommended scubapro mk25/S600's. Great regs, but not one I would take ice diving, and for the cost I'd rather buy Atomics that are much higher quality if I was going piston, but recommended the Apeks DST or Hog D3 to him which are sealed so will be less maintenance for him, and cheaper to buy. Apeks is $150 cheaper than SP, Hog D3 doubles set is the same price as just the first and second stage. Of course they're going to want to sell scubapro vs Hog, they make more money.

Recommended Halcyon Eclipse, great rig but he was concerned about buying good gear but not breaking the bank, shop is also a DSS dealer, but of course they recommend Halcyon because they make more money off of it. DSS is $450, Halcyon is $750.

Most are motivated by $$$, they have little concern for selling the best equipment because it means they aren't going to have repeat sales from that guy, same exact reason PADI has expanded into so many courses and requires specialties, it has nothing to do with producing better divers, but everything to do with getting the most amount of money into the shops and their pockets. It sucks, but it is a horribly dishonest industry we live in. That is the reason you see reputable shops like Cave Adventurers, Dive Right in Scuba, Northeast Scuba Supply, etc getting business from people that have never met them. I called Mike at DRiS looking for a new drysuit. "Mike, need a new suit, cave diving, light wreck diving. What are you recommending and what suit are you using now since you have the pick of the litter?" I get a suit that is on the cheaper side of things but is built to the same quality as the big boys. He could have very easily told me to get a Santi and I would gladly have spend $4k instead of $2k on a suit, but he told me it wasn't worth double the money. Edd does the same stuff, that's why although he is a Dive Rite and Hollis dealer, both of which are much better for his pocket than Hog, he sells a boat load of Hog regulators, they're a better value for the customer, and he gets a lot of guys coming back to him because of it. John does the same thing. These aren't normal shops, they are run by very competent divers who know what they like and there is a reason for all of it. None of them buy into the hype of the "next best thing" and are never pushy about trying to upsell you into junk that you don't need. It means less money for them directly from me, but it means that I tell people to call them when they need stuff because they aren't going to steer them wrong. That is what is lost by most of the recreational shops and is a huge reason that while I was in Raleigh and was in close proximity to 6 dive shops *pre Air Hogs for reference*, I almost never went into them. I went into 4 different ones once each. Two were to get air fills for my OW class, one was to conduct a sidemount clinic for their dive club, and the other was to buy some valve plugs that some guy was selling and just happened to work for them. All of my business went elsewhere because these shops were pushy into trying to get me to take classes and buy stuff that I didn't need and it pushed me away, so instead of getting a little bit of business here and there, they got nothing.

You are correct as far as the importance of having knowledgeable staff, able to: demonstrate, explain, and recommend the right equipment options for a specific type of diver. This is one type of sales requirement , is what everyone should encounter at their LDS.

The other type of sales training , I want to emphasize is the one that deals with new non divers visiting a dive shop for the first time. Or perhaps they have been to one before but know they came again just to look around. They not sure they want to dive because they don't really know what they can expect and they don't enough to decide if its worth it. If local dive shop and the industry in general is tired of flat line growth, they should look at changing their approach to non divers who come in to visit. This is their opportunity, to properly greet ,inform and introduce to this new activity they curios about.

My thought is that this area needs to be refined a lot more. Especially if we are to expect a change in attracting new people. I am not advocating that we even consider comparing to a car sales man. But rather in the way sales training importance is taken in some industries. The content of the training, should be focusing on certain techniques which I quoted from Erics original post.

"They teach you how to be animated and you learn to see what you look and sound like (which can be an eye opener).
They also teach you what to look for in people, to read body language, to recognize when people are getting uncomfortable or many other emotions, and most of all when to shut up!"

Certain mannerisms and things to do and not to do are skills that are important when dealing with people. They can leave a very lasting impression on a person especially a visiting non diver.

Has any LDS owner/staff have thoughts on this?

Frank G
www.zgearinc.com

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

The down side is that acting classes teach you to talk, but they don't teach the most important skill in selling.

[video=youtube;KL6tv_jerAk]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KL6tv_jerAk[/video]

There is no downside to learning how to act. Acting is only one component of a full sales education.
My neice is a great actress. She was heavily involved with acting and drama all through school and in university. She's currently involved with several venues that perform live.
She's also one of the leading sales people for a Macy's and recently was asked to hold a few workshops regionally for other sales associates.
She's one of the top sales people in the area. Macy's was only supposed to be a part time gig until she could decide her next move (post recession). It just so happened that she was so good at her job that she excelled leaps and bounds. She's decided to stay with them and climb the corporate ladder.
I also have a very good friend (and customer) who is one of the top real estate sales people in the area. We had a conversation about presentation, body language, speaking, etc. He says acting classes helped him immensely. He's also a motivational speaker and does seminars all over the west mostly in the subject of real estate.

 

[LeadTurn_SD]

Look at it this way...

The best sales people help customers identify and solve problems.

Yes!! When I encounter them, regardless of what type of store / shop / business I am shopping in, it is a joy....

But all too often, I am forced to agree with awap:

Unfortunately, the top problem many sales people are trying to solve is that of getting the customer's wallet out and open.

When I go into a dive shop, like any other store, I appreciate knowledgeable assistance. With scuba gear, I'm an easy sell. I love the stuff! I have a closet full of stuff I bought to prove it!

But try to up-sell me, not listening to my needs, or trying to tell me I need the latest gizmo or gadget without even getting a handle on whether it is a good "fit" or not.... arrrgh.

I'm easy. You had me when I smelled neoprene and heard the air compressor running. Don't blow it with clumsy sales tactics.

Best wishes.