Why does DIR reject quick disconnects?

[MookieMoose]

Thanks very much for all the replies. As it stands, I have not taken a DIRF course, but am considering it. I also have not read the book.

I am not trying to gather ammunition either in the defence of quick disconnects, or against them. I understand why they are not favoured, what I'm trying to do here is get more information about who decided they were an unacceptable risk, and how that decision was made.

I also understand that gear configuration is only a small part of DIR philosophy. This post was not about DIR philosophy in general, but about why a particular piece of equipment is called a 'failure point' - is it because some testing has been done that demonstrates it is more prone to failure, or is it simply because common wisdom says a plastic part is more likely to break than a piece of webbing, combined with the anacdotal reports of 'I once saw a tank placed/dropped/fall on a quick disconnect and crush it'.

Thanks for all the replies - keep 'em comming.

Cam

 

[pipedope]

Of things like your backup lights.

 

[Diver0001]

<snip>

I'm not trying to say that the rejection of these types of connectors by DIR is either good or bad, I would simply like to know on what basis this rejection was made. I am a researcher by career, and evidence is important to me.

Thanks in advance.

Cam

I think the evidence is in the doing. Dan Gibson has the right answer. They can and will shatter with a hard blow. I know two people who have had this happen, one of whom had the buckle fail during the dive because he didn't realise it was broken yet. Although I've never personally had it happen on diving gear, I have had several similar quick releases break on backpacking/camping gear.

And obviously you don't want this happening while you're diving. for typical recreational dives it's not such a problem if a buckle fails, more of an annoyance, but if you have stage bottles and all kinds of stuff hanging on your shoulder straps, then having a buckle fail can making continuing the dive very difficult to say the least.

Ergo..... since the problem is completely avoidable then the DIR response is to completely avoid it.

R..

 

[Green_Manelishi]

Remember, the stakes are higher for a lot of the DIR community - deep water wrecking, caving, mad deco, etc, etc. Meaning their margin of error is narrower. I'm in the minority, in as much as I'm a simple recreational diver that dives DIR. I flop in, and about an hour later, I get out. I wait awhile, and I do it all again. It works fine for me. It might for you, too.


K

This is the key. For the typical "rec" diver that likes to use a BP/Wing, the failure of a QR might be nothing more than an inconvenience. For a guy (or girl) in an overhead environment (physical or physiological) the failure of a QR will be more than inconvenient ... it might prove deadly.

 

[docmartin]

A somewhat related question...

I dive a halcyon BP&W and have keepers installed such that the shoulder portion is a fixed length (keepers behind the backplate which prevent webbing from moving from the shoulder loops to the waist loop).

Some friends dive without the keepers so they can unbuckle the waist strap and enlarge the shoulders for donning/doffing.

The left waist strap has a D ring installed (stage bottle ring), so it cannot slide out more then a few inches. The right waist strap has the light and extra buckle which holds the light in place, so it too cannot slide out more than a few inches. I really can't see the rig "falling off", which was my first concern.

I haven't removed the keepers from my own rig, but I've considered it.

Comments?

interesting idea especially since i hate getting my ds exhaust valve stuck when getting in and out of my harness. however, it does surprise me that this works in real life. the way the harness is threaded through the lower bp slots (i.e. going from front to back to front) i would think that after getting into the harness it would be very difficult to re-tighten the harness without help. i would think that just pulling on the loose ends would not do much because the way it is threaded it would get stuck even without keepers. i may give it a try though.

 

[joe_at_subtidal]

I dive a halcyon BP&W and have keepers installed such that the shoulder portion is a fixed length (keepers behind the backplate which prevent webbing from moving from the shoulder loops to the waist loop).

Some friends dive without the keepers so they can unbuckle the waist strap and enlarge the shoulders for donning/doffing.

The left waist strap has a D ring installed (stage bottle ring), so it cannot slide out more then a few inches. The right waist strap has the light and extra buckle which holds the light in place, so it too cannot slide out more than a few inches. I really can't see the rig "falling off", which was my first concern.

I haven't removed the keepers from my own rig, but I've considered it.

Comments?

One issue that youe may encounter is the constant resizing of your harness. We spend an inordinate amount of time in the DIRF class making sure your shoulder straps, drings, and waist strap are all in the right place. The keepers help to ensure that your equipment stays in that location. I agree that while I'm wearing it, the left waist dring and can light prevent it from going anywhere (although it could still overtighten, which would be a pain), but I'd be more concerned when I'm not wearing it. Moving my gear around, etc., it would be very prone to resizing, and then it wouldn't feel right when I got back into it. Having that hip d-ring moving around would be very irritating when it came to working with multiple stages, etc. Nothing worse than having a perfect fit become unperfect.

Most of the need for QR and moveable straps can be fixed by knowing how to get out of the harness effectively. In an emergency, we cut it off. Out of the water, I usually sit down or have someone hold my tank. Then I usually grab hold of my clipped off primary on the right and my power inflator on the left, and GENTLY pull outward. This, combined with sinking my body lower than the harness, gives me enough room to remove the harness. Deflating the wing can help as well. With this method, I don't have any problem getting out of the harness, with wrist gauges, drysuit valves.

Joe Talavera

 

[Atticus]

Thanks for the well thought out responses.

I don't have much of a problem getting in and out of the rig either in the water or on a bench / tailgate, though I will say that it's always slightly awkward. Dropping down like Joe suggests does help a lot, especially when the bench is high enough (I'm 6'4").

I have had some friends comment when watching me slither in that it would be easier if I did it their way -- without the keepers.

I haven't tried it, so I can't comment on whether everything resizes in an annoying fashion.

I'll watch carefully next time I see them with their rigs and see if they have any of the issues you've mentioned.

Thanks again,
Merlin

 

[jagfish]

I don't have much of a problem getting in and out of the rig either in the water or on a bench / tailgate, though I will say that it's always slightly awkward.

Thinking abot the BP/W setup, aand never areally thought about the potential difficulty of donning and doffing until I began reading posts like the above.

Since I do a lot of shore entries, I have to lift my rig from the ground. With my BC, I usually loosen the shoulder straps all the way before putting on or taking off gear. Any hints on donning from the ground?

Also, just out of curiosity, has manufacterer tried it's hand at making metal quick release buckles? Actually, moreso than quick release, I would be more intersted in adjustability. Probably a totally novice Q from someone outside the world of BP/W use, but I have often wondered why this is not seen in traditional BC use. It would not have to be much different than a seat belt buckle and I've seen some pretty simple designs on buggies or other off-road vehicles that I could envision on a BC.

JAG

 

[Mo2vation]

Thinking abot the BP/W setup, aand never areally thought about the potential difficulty of donning and doffing until I began reading posts like the above.

Since I do a lot of shore entries, I have to lift my rig from the ground. With my BC, I usually loosen the shoulder straps all the way before putting on or taking off gear. Any hints on donning from the ground?

Also, just out of curiosity, has manufacterer tried it's hand at making metal quick release buckles? Actually, moreso than quick release, I would be more intersted in adjustability. Probably a totally novice Q from someone outside the world of BP/W use, but I have often wondered why this is not seen in traditional BC use. It would not have to be much different than a seat belt buckle and I've seen some pretty simple designs on buggies or other off-road vehicles that I could envision on a BC.

JAG

I can't imagine, in a situation in the cold water, with 5mm gloves on, as my life support system starts to slide off my shoulder into the abyss, trying to re-thread a steel or plastic buckle.

Get your buddy to put the thing on a bent knee, or simply sling it over one shoulder, and sort of chicken-wing (thanks for the visual, Chickdiver!) into the other side as your buddy holds your cylinder from the bottom. Ain't no thing.

K

 

[jagfish]

I can't imagine, in a situation in the cold water, with 5mm gloves on, as my life support system starts to slide off my shoulder into the abyss, trying to re-thread a steel or plastic buckle.

Get your point, but even current BCs with adjustable shoulder straps have stops on the webbing that does not let it come out through the buckles....Mine actually has a D ring sewn into the end of the webbing so it is impossible to be totally withdrawn, unless the sewing comes loose.

JAG