Why no regulator service class and free access to service kits/parts for tech divers?

[muzikbiz22]

I'm not sure a person's dive quals have any bearing on their ability to service kit. It is, in essence, an engineering task.

Agree. Don't equate "Tech Diver" with mechanical competency, or being a smarter person. In the original post, the OP suggests "relaxed the restrictions for tech divers". Why not lower them for everyone, IF that's the way we want to go ? I often dive with Professors, Engineers, Cops, pilots, etc. They are all Rec Divers, and would NEVER do they're own reg servicing, but they are "smart/competent". Perhaps they would qualify for an "special exemption" to do their own service since they are not Tech Divers ? Should we relax them even more for rebreather divers, since they are even "more smarter/competent" ? Just sayin'. Someone earlier said it best using oil changes. For me, it's not about qualifications to do my own servicing, but more about time and convenience.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

I do agree that the liability issue is a smoke screen.
What I was saying is that's what they say (at least that's what I meant), of course it's for profit, I wish I could make $65 - $75 for 20 minutes worth of work. Sometimes they are more involved than (crusty, green, gross) that but then the price goes up too.

Most or all of the big companies require a service tech student to be employed and sponsored by a retail shop, or be the owner of the shop.

If they don't want to change screw 'em. The trend now is for new upcoming companies to be much more end user friendly and bring the product straight to the customer.
The shops are just losing profit AFAIK with parts. I'm going to buy contraband parts on the black market no matter what...right now. If a shop would just sell me the parts, THEY would get the sale, not some online place, which is better than nothing, right?. But online is only place I have right now. And nobody services my regs but me.
I've not had good luck with people working on my stuff.
It's my own OCD thing, but I like to personally know what's going on inside my regs.

 

[kr2y5]

Greed, on the part of AL and LDS's would lose business ( monopolistic ) once the diving community's learning curve went up and divers learned how easy it is to service their own gear...Simple GREED !!!!

You may be right, but... how exactly does AL benefit from this arrangement? As others pointed out, shops charge for labor, and over-charge for kits, I don't suppose AL has a share in those profits... or do they? So it would seem that there is no direct benefit. If anything, I would think that the 1% of customers (or less) interested in servicing their own gear might purchase more equipment, since they will be less concerned about the amount of money that they will have to part with on an annual basis (and that would not go to AL's pockets, anyhow), although as far as I can tell, folks who choose to service their own gear do not necessarily always do that to save money. Or, is it believed that if AL started to sell training and kits to individuals, the shops would favor other brands, and that would indirectly impact AL's sales? Do local dive shops really have that kind of leverage at this point, are they capable of a coordinated response, and would it really be in their best self-interest to retaliate against AL for that small fraction of customers they'd conceivably lose? Wouldn't that be shooting themselves in the foot, with online retailers getting a bigger share of the market? Aside from that factor, would selling training, tools, etc., by the local shops, not easily offset that minuscule loss with a thick margin?

I dont agree. I think you would find that to many would start to work on thier own regs with out the proper tools ect. Next is the issue of putting outdated kits in the regs. You know. " I just bought 25 kits for my regs , that will last me at least 10 years." Then the letigous issues of giving parts to bob who is uncertified to service jims regs and jim dies. I think that in todays legal environment it just can't be allowed to happen. Granted most shops do not have qualified techs to service specific regs, but there you go. I would say that the concensus would be dont give matches to a 5 year old. and all non shop people are 4 and younger.

I absolutely agree that a person without proper training and tools should not even think of servicing their own equipment. Given the current situation, if I wanted to get proper training, I need to purchase a HOG regulator, and get a class from them. Once I buy the first HOG regulator and rationalize that purchase, really, what stops me from purchasing the second one... and then the third one, and so on... they are even cheaper than AL, so why not? After all, by then, I will have already convinced myself that HOG regulators are just as good as Apeks (otherwise, how could a reasonable person that I am have purchased them in the first place, surely I did what was right for me). That doesn't seem to be helping here...

AFAIK, people can unofficially obtain parts even today, and in the absence of proper training, they will seek knowledge on ScubaBoard, on YouTube, or unofficially from friends at local shops, or, at best, might choose to get class from HOG, and apply that knowledge towards their Apeks equipment (or not). I would think that offering training would only increase awareness, and reduce the risk of people following incorrect, outdated procedures, or using wrong tools or parts. I'm not really convinced that the current situation is beneficial from the perspective of safety.

What i do find is cheesy is when a kit retails for 10-15 usd and because of the mentioned inavailability the lds charges/guoges you 50 usd for it on top of the labor. Ive seen regs come out of a shop servicing with a 150 usd tag on it. I may be mistaken but i believe the lds's get many kits free.

...which again begs the question, what's in it for AL?

I don't think by the bigger companies selling parts to DIY'ers would make a hill of beans of difference to shops. There will always be about 99% of the public that will never service their own regs. We see a lot of talk about it here on SB, but there's also a concentrated population of tech divers and DIY'ers here too. They sell oil and filters at parts stores but look at how many people still take their car to the 10 min oil change places. And the last time I checked mechanics shops of all sorts are not suffering.

So we're talking about a group that represents a tiny fraction of revenue as far as annual service is concerned, but a disproportionately large influence on the community, and the perception of the brand... that should be a no-brainer.

I think it's just a liability mindset myself. If the companies openly sell parts then they are probably thinking they are opening themselves up for lawsuits. The dive shops maybe aren't selling parts because of a conflict of interest,... and maybe liability concerns too.

You may be right, but then again... AL does offer training for the LDS technicians... it would seem to me that a single insufficiently-trained technician has the potential to kill a much larger group of people as compared to a single insufficiently-trained individual who services only his/her own equipment.

There are parts out there on the black market. Aqualung parts are actually easy to get, easy enough that I can service everything Aqualung that I have. People are going to continue to obtain parts no matter what. I think it would be in their (companies) best interest to offer service classes regardless if they offer parts or not. At least the people that want it could get an education so they won't get hurt.

I second that.

Liability for selling parts is just a smoke screen, LSD profit is the major reason. (...) Bottom line, it's a cash cow that the dive industry does not want to let go of.

Possibly... however, Aqualung is not a charity business... if LDS profit were the real reason, it would have to somehow come back, this way or another... I am curious to understand the mechanism that makes it possible for AL to financially benefit from upholding the current restrictive policies.

I have ask those who say it's a liability issue for any case, any where on on any piece of equipment (scuba/auto/airplane/whatever) that involved a customer being sold good (not defective) parts and so far no one has come up with anything. Think about it for a minute and it's clear that if liability were the reason, it would make better sence to sell the parts and not service them at all. Odds of selling defective parts is slim, having some tank monkey that set in a 1/2 day class that is now "certified" to service gear screw up a reg is a much bigger liability. If anything offerning classes would increase the liability, I can see a case based on " I screwed up and hurt someone because you did not instruct me properly, therefore it's your fault", I might even vote for the plaintiff if on the jury but a case based on "you sold me perfectly good parts and I installed them wrong and hurt someone, you are at fault" , I just don't see that happening.

I second that, and I wonder how HOG manages to rationalize their decision, clearly they must have thought about liability, and concluded that the benefit outweighs the risk...

I'm not sure a person's dive quals have any bearing on their ability to service kit. It is, in essence, an engineering task. It only makes sense therefore to either allow anyone to buy parts (like Germany) or no-one.

Agree. Don't equate "Tech Diver" with mechanical competency, or being a smarter person. In the original post, the OP suggests "relaxed the restrictions for tech divers". Why not lower them for everyone, IF that's the way we want to go ? I often dive with Professors, Engineers, Cops, pilots, etc. They are all Rec Divers, and would NEVER do they're own reg servicing, but they are "smart/competent". Perhaps they would qualify for an "special exemption" to do their own service since they are not Tech Divers ? Should we relax them even more for rebreather divers, since they are even "more smarter/competent" ? Just sayin'. Someone earlier said it best using oil changes. For me, it's not about qualifications to do my own servicing, but more about time and convenience.

I don't disagree with you, the reason I mentioned tech divers is because that's whom HOG is targeting right now. Perhaps they concluded that tech divers present a smaller risk because they are a smaller group, or because they willingly engage in an activity commonly perceived to be dangerous, and it'd harder to claim that they didn't know what they were doing and shift the blame onto the manufacturer who provided the parts and training. Anyhow, the key question is that why deny access to training and parts to everyone...

I do agree that the liability issue is a smoke screen. If they don't want to change screw 'em. The trend now is for new upcoming companies to be much more end user friendly and bring the product straight to the customer. The shops are just losing profit AFAIK with parts. I'm going to buy contraband parts on the black market no matter what...right now. If a shop would just sell me the parts, THEY would get the sale, not some online place, which is better than nothing, right?. But online is only place I have right now. And nobody services my regs but me.

I agree with you.

 

[Bob DBF]

Agree. Don't equate "Tech Diver" with mechanical competency, or being a smarter person. In the original post, the OP suggests "relaxed the restrictions for tech divers". Why not lower them for everyone, IF that's the way we want to go ?

That's the way I want to go, complete access to both parts and training. I doubt that it will impact the industry much, as most of the people who want to service their own gear already do.

It is amusing that I can buy any parts I want to repair my car when the possibility of killing many others by my mistakes in the repair is acceptable, but when repairing my reg, and that possibility only affects me, it is not. It just sounds like restraint of trade to me.

I often dive with Professors, Engineers, Cops, pilots, etc. They are all Rec Divers, and would NEVER do they're own reg servicing, but they are "smart/competent".

But doesn't tell me whether any of them should be trusted with a wrench. It could be that they understand the limits of their mechanical ability, don't want to "get their hands dirty", believe the story that only shop techs know the magic of the regulator, or just have more money than time. It is, and should be, their choice how and who maintains their gear.

There are parts out there on the black market. Aqualung parts are actually easy to get, easy enough that I can service everything Aqualung that I have.
People are going to continue to obtain parts no matter what. I think it would be in their (companies) best interest to offer service classes regardless if they offer parts or not.
At least the people that want it could get an education so they won't get hurt.

I would be interesting to see a lawsuit against a manufacturer because they withheld parts and training from the DIY tech who did the rebuild right, but the black market parts he was forced to use, by the manufacturer, failed. Fortunately, we won't see this as it seems that the DIY crowd has a good track record of repairing and adjusting regs properly. That includes some of the antiques that no one makes parts for anymore.



Bob
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There are more ways than one to skin a cat, however the cat never likes it.

 

[redacted]

The manufacturer benefits by having shops that seek to sell their gear. So the benefit is mutual and the only loser is the end user.

It is not simply a question of a small number of DIYer who are not paying an LDS for service. They find their way around the parts sales restrictions. But if all parts were openly available to other than authorized dealers; the more competent DIYers would present a serious competition to many LDSs.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

The manufacturer benefits by having shops that seek to sell their gear. So the benefit is mutual and the only loser is the end user.

It is not simply a question of a small number of DIYer who are not paying an LDS for service. They find their way around the parts sales restrictions. But it all parts were openly available to other than authorized dealers; the more competent DIYers would present a serious competition to many LDSs.

That is true.
When I was an auto body tech we had to go through at least a dozen I-Car classes plus an ASE certification and test going through everything from air bags to antilock brakes and many other things very technical in nature. Compared, reg rebuilding to me is about like changing your oil or a tire.
So, for guys like me, if I had availability to parts I would probably be doing regs for friends, and with a lot more attention to detail than some $12 a hour dude in the back of a dive shop changing parts...and cheaper too.

Thank god for places like VDH, NESS, Hog, and others for selling me parts. God bless them!


The big question:
Why do we care what the LDS's or stubborn companies do? Because it's in our human nature (and every Red Blooded American's) to constantly challenge things we see as corrupt, oppressive, or wrong.
Why do you think this country was formed?

 

[redacted]

The big question:
Why do we care what the LDS's or stubborn companies do? Because it's in our human nature (and every Red Blooded American's) to constantly challenge things we see as corrupt, oppressive, or wrong.
Why do you think this country was formed?

I still dislike the nut-roll of the parts hunt and the stockpiling that is motivated by it.

So, has anybody ever rented a regulator from an LDS just to cannibalize parts the shop will not sell to you? A Mk20 piston upgrade would cost $50 if you could find the part. The rig rents for what - $25? While you are at it, you might as well grab the s-wing poppet and maybe even a metal orifice. Just a thought.

 

[Eric Sedletzky]

I still dislike the nut-roll of the parts hunt and the stockpiling that is motivated by it.

So, has anybody ever rented a regulator from an LDS just to cannibalize parts the shop will not sell to you? A Mk20 piston upgrade would cost $50 if you could find the part. The rig rents for what - $25? While you are at it, you might as well grab the s-wing poppet and maybe even a metal orifice. Just a thought.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ! LOL

 

[kr2y5]

The manufacturer benefits by having shops that seek to sell their gear.

I'm trying to understand that better. So, you think that if AL offered training and kits to individuals like Eric Sedletzky, the LDSs would stop selling AL equipment, or they would sell less of it, by recommending equipment from competing brands to their customers. As a dive shop owner, what would I possibly gain by doing that? These days, customers tend to shop online, they participate in communities like this one, do their research at home, come to dive shops educated, and often know what they want. Should I try to accommodate the customer's needs, especially given that with 99% probability they will come back for service and other gear if we build a relationship based on trust, or should I risk alienating the customer by pushing them towards another brand, and have them go to another shop or buy equipment online?

If this were indeed the reason, it would strike me as thinking small. A company that owns a brand like Apeks should think big, not small. You compete by having a product of superior quality, not by contrived schemes that rely on the customer being uneducated.

But if all parts were openly available to other than authorized dealers; the more competent DIYers would present a serious competition to many LDSs.

If Eric Sedletzky were able to generate enough business with his friends servicing AL equipment to be a threat to a local dive shops, I would promptly offer him a commission for selling AL gear, not try to make his life harder...

 

[redacted]

I'm trying to understand that better. So, you think that if AL offered training and kits to individuals like Eric Sedletzky, the LDSs would stop selling AL equipment, or they would sell less of it, by recommending equipment from competing brands to their customers. As a dive shop owner, what would I possibly gain by doing that? These days, customers tend to shop online, they participate in communities like this one, do their research at home, come to dive shops educated, and often know what they want. Should I try to accommodate the customer's needs, especially given that with 99% probability they will come back for service and other gear if we build a relationship based on trust, or should I risk alienating the customer by pushing them towards another brand, and have them go to another shop or buy equipment online?

If this were indeed the reason, it would strike me as thinking small. A company that owns a brand like Apeks should think big, not small. You compete by having a product of superior quality, not by contrived schemes that rely on the customer being uneducated.

Thinking small is what many LDSs are best at. Go into your local shops and tell them you are interested in EDGE/HOG regulators and ask them if they would consider carrying them. I'll bet they look at you like you are crazy. They do not want to promote a line that gives users an alternative to LDS service.

Many were probably quite unhappy with the recently introduced 2 year service interval.

Think about why LDSs dislike the internet and Scubaboard. Most LDSs think they should be the only source of anything scuba for their customers. When they say brand XYZ is crap and only the gear they sell is any good, they need customers to believe that. When customers can get unbiased information from other sources, an LDS may (will) lose business. And then, of course, scuba shoppers are liable to do a little price shopping - rarely a good thing for any LDS.

Real quality differences (performance, reliability, and durability) are hard to find between major scuba manufacturers. Some differences in support (distance to retailer) but that can change. Much bigger difference between top of the line and entry level items than manufacturers until you get down to the bells and whistles.

If Eric Sedletzky were able to generate enough business with his friends servicing AL equipment to be a threat to a local dive shops, I would promptly offer him a commission for selling AL gear, not try to make his life harder...

You mean you would withdraw the "protection" afforded to your established shops!!!! Shops have a lot of choices also and something like opening up parts access might get shops changing brands (which is why you don't see many shops selling Edge/HOG). Quite a few years ago a local shop dropped AL when he found the PX sell their gear (without the price constraints of the dealer agreement).