Why the Compass on the Left Arm?

[Taliena]

They told me a wireless transmitter is allowed by gue, but some instructors don't want. You need a normal sp too. Same with cinch(?), that is allowed too they told me. Even a miflex longhose (but most divers don't like that).
For gue I can do a fundy course while wearing my compass on right hand?

There are really good divers that never followed a 'DIR course'.

Mixed team diving was always a problem with gue divers, but now it is possible. So 'DIR' changes too. I believe a mixed team is not a problem. I have done it on easy fundives and on real deep dives now (over 100m). For the oc diver it is more save, the ccr divers still need their bailouts and there nothing changes.

Since january I moved over to the darkside and dive now really DIR

 

[Gareth]

They told me a wireless transmitter is allowed by gue, but some instructors don't want. You need a normal sp too. Same with cinch(?), that is allowed too they told me. Even a miflex longhose (but most divers don't like that).

Perhaps you should speak to a GUE instructor if you are interested in GUE standards. Or just read them - they are freely available online. A cinch is within standards, but some instructors discourage them. I am one of those instructors. I'm not sure what a "normal" spg is.

For gue I can do a fundy course while wearing my compass on right hand?

Sure, it's not mandated in the standards. What it would tell me, however, is that you don't really get the point of being a GUE diver. So I'd start asking myself if you are really going to add something to the GUE diving community. Passing a GUE course is not about having the right equipment or even just completing the required skills.

There are really good divers that never followed a 'DIR course'.

You keep banging on about this. No-one has said otherwise, yet here you are, in a DIR forum, seemingly fighting the system. Why? You sound threatened by it. DIR isn't mandatory. If it's not for you, move on.

Mixed team diving was always a problem with gue divers, but now it is possible. So 'DIR' changes too. I believe a mixed team is not a problem. I have done it on easy fundives and on real deep dives now (over 100m). For the oc diver it is more save, the ccr divers still need their bailouts and there nothing changes.

Since january I moved over to the darkside and dive now really DIR

Sorry, you are not DIR. I don't need to see your equipment or video of you in the water to know that. You have said yourself that DIR is a mindset, and you clearly don't have it, or at least don't have it yet. Whilst you are still trying to pick holes in things you clearly cannot see the advantage of standardising.

I think I'm done with this thread. If you have any genuine questions about GUE, please feel free to send me a PM.

 

[Taliena]

When I did my ow course, I said, I want to have a twinset, so I bought one, with longhose and my first drysuit. Then I asked people about a gue fundy course. People said don’t do that, you are not experienced enough, go and dive normal. So I did, I did my aow, basic nitrox, rescue and dm. Then I said, now I am experienced enough to do technical diving. Then people warned me again not to do a fundy course because ‘diving on air is not allowed anymore’ and if you live in a place where nitrox is difficult to get, what would you do then? No diving? No. They told me I needed apeks regs (and I had aqualungs then), and some more things. Now I know that the brand of regs is not a problem to do a gue course, but at that time I didn’t. Then I started technical diving. I met some gue divers and we dove together. If I want something, then I do it seriously, so I practiced a lot, and practised with gue divers. But I followed the more advanced courses in technical diving, they didn’t, where not as interested in deeper diving as me (they did tech1 and cave1, but a 60m on normoxic trimix was not enough for me, and I did a full cave course). Even good friends. Diving is fun and even if you don’t want to dive deeper than a 5-6m, I don’t mind. I have a good friend where I go ‘diving’ to watch fish. Then after finishing my full trimix course which I did with an unknown diver, we dived first time together on the course, we discussed the course because my instructor had done gue courses, but told me to think out of the box. So I dived for first time in my live with non-standardgases. And I liked this open mind to see that other gases can work well too.
Then you meet new gue divers and they ask me to do a fundy course. So I said why? I can do all dives I want, won’t you dive with me if I don’t have done a gue fundy course? Some said yes, others said know, because they know I can do real teamdiving. With my friends I discussed this, I can do a gue fundy course and pass with a techrating, I don’t worry for that. But I dive with all divers, and if I like the plan or gases, then it is no problem. With the gue divers, I know the plans and gases if we dive and we don’t need to discuss it. Because my technical diving went deeper and longer, and I met other divers too, rebreatherdivers. They said, don’t do a 100m anymore on oc.Then I tried a rb and since January I am over to the ‘darkside’. I met new buddy’s with a ccr, I lost some gue buddy’s by making the choice of a ccr and I have gue buddy’s that still dive with me if I am on cc, and I have the ‘diw’ buddy’s that don’t mind.My ccr friends joke me, now you are a real DIR diver, and yes, it is true: Diving Inspiration Rebreather.So I am a person that is between ‘normal hogarthian diving’ and ‘DIR diving’, and dive ccr too. I made a steel backplate and hogarthian harnass on my ccr so there is no difference with my oc equipment to find backuplights and so on. At the moment I don’t see the need to do a fundy course, what would I learn that is the money worth? But I don’t say I will never do a ‘DIR course’ or a fundy course. Some gue divers think I have done some gue courses when they are with me in the water. Gue has good courses, but other agencies have good courses too. If you only want to learn 'DIR diving', then you need to go to gue, swedtech, utd, inner space explorers. But within these DIR organisations there are differences. What is best? I don't know.

 

[nimoh]

When I did my ow course, I said, I want to have a twinset, so I bought one, with longhose and my first drysuit. Then I asked people about a gue fundy course. People said don’t do that, you are not experienced enough, go and dive normal. So I did, I did my aow, basic nitrox, rescue and dm.

those people were wrong, don't listen to them. Fundamentals is not a technical diving course.

Then I said, now I am experienced enough to do technical diving. Then people warned me again not to do a fundy course because ‘diving on air is not allowed anymore’ and if you live in a place where nitrox is difficult to get, what would you do then? No diving? No.

If you can't get oxygen, you can't do technical dives. If you can get oxygen and air, you can make nitrox.

They told me I needed apeks regs (and I had aqualungs then), and some more things. Now I know that the brand of regs is not a problem to do a gue course, but at that time I didn’t.

same people? again, don't listen to them.

Then I started technical diving. I met some gue divers and we dove together. If I want something, then I do it seriously, so I practiced a lot, and practised with gue divers. But I followed the more advanced courses in technical diving, they didn’t, where not as interested in deeper diving as me (they did tech1 and cave1, but a 60m on normoxic trimix was not enough for me, and I did a full cave course).

not everyone wants to go deeper...even GUE divers

Even good friends. Diving is fun and even if you don’t want to dive deeper than a 5-6m, I don’t mind. I have a good friend where I go ‘diving’ to watch fish. Then after finishing my full trimix course which I did with an unknown diver, we dived first time together on the course, we discussed the course because my instructor had done gue courses, but told me to think out of the box. So I dived for first time in my live with non-standardgases. And I liked this open mind to see that other gases can work well too.

standard gases work well for ratio deco, and using standard gases makes it easier to remember what is in your tanks as you are about to start the dive. It's a standardization thing, and you clearly aren't understanding this aspect of DIR.

Then you meet new gue divers and they ask me to do a fundy course. So I said why? I can do all dives I want, won’t you dive with me if I don’t have done a gue fundy course? Some said yes, others said know, because they know I can do real teamdiving. With my friends I discussed this, I can do a gue fundy course and pass with a techrating, I don’t worry for that. But I dive with all divers, and if I like the plan or gases, then it is no problem. With the gue divers, I know the plans and gases if we dive and we don’t need to discuss it. Because my technical diving went deeper and longer, and I met other divers too, rebreatherdivers. They said, don’t do a 100m anymore on oc.

lots of GUE divers dive with not-GUE divers. I commonly dive with new OW divers (within their limits). Every diver (trained by any agency) will make decisions on whether or not to dive with another diver, and different people have different reasons for making the decision.

Then I tried a rb and since January I am over to the ‘darkside’. I met new buddy’s with a ccr, I lost some gue buddy’s by making the choice of a ccr and I have gue buddy’s that still dive with me if I am on cc, and I have the ‘diw’ buddy’s that don’t mind.My ccr friends joke me, now you are a real DIR diver, and yes, it is true: Diving Inspiration Rebreather.So I am a person that is between ‘normal hogarthian diving’ and ‘DIR diving’, and dive ccr too.

I am not familiar with 'normal hogarthian diving'

I made a steel backplate and hogarthian harnass on my ccr so there is no difference with my oc equipment to find backuplights and so on. At the moment I don’t see the need to do a fundy course, what would I learn that is the money worth? But I don’t say I will never do a ‘DIR course’ or a fundy course. Some gue divers think I have done some gue courses when they are with me in the water. Gue has good courses, but other agencies have good courses too. If you only want to learn 'DIR diving', then you need to go to gue, swedtech, utd, inner space explorers. But within these DIR organisations there are differences. What is best? I don't know.

I don't see a reason for you to take a GUE course either, and I agree, other agencies have good courses too. "Best" is a subjective term, and if you don't see the value of standardization, you will probably view something else as being better.

 

[LiteHedded]

10 pages of this now...

 

[ucfdiver]

10 pages of this now...

That's how it works when someone is good at trolling. Keeps poking with a stick, but stays polite enough that it's hard for the mods to justify deleting it.

If you had any doubt that the OP was genuinely interested in DIR diving when the thread started, you shouldn't now.

 

[LiteHedded]

it's a whole new troll now. on and on we go...
he really wants to put a compass on his hand and everyone loves telling him it's not dir. OVER AND OVER

 

[PfcAJ]

Speaking of CCR, how do you feel they fit into DIR standardization, Gareth? In your post you talk about how DIR configuration isn't necessarily the best for every dive situation, but that it covers a wide range and is applicable to many, thus the value of standardization. But a CCR is specialized, and if a GUE dive group has 1 or 2 CCR divers, and a few OC divers, then the team is no longer standardized. If bending the rules is acceptable for certain technical dives, why not allow compass on the left when not scootering, wireless transmitters for rec diving, and other changes? If standardization is so cut and dry, is the allowance of CCR not contradictory?

I can't speak to anything regarding the CCR program, but mixed teams with the RB80 is highly discouraged. The exception being when gaining hours early after training, and even then it was highly recommended to be done with another RB80 trained diver.

 

[Vegan Shark]

It's not so much about the compass right now, but the idea of cut and dry standardization. If standardization were black and white, then there wouldn't be much to argue about, as something would either be DIR, or not be DIR, sure. But the fact that CCR has been introduced by GUE kinda' contradicts the idea of standardization, and the philosophy of having a configuration that applies to every type of diving, rather than specializing your setup for different dives. If the rules can be bent for tech dives, then why not recreational dives as well, is the question that pops up.

If a group has a very cut and dry, all or nothing approach to standardization, of course people are going to ask questions if you introduce something like CCR, which is a radical change in that standardization. I imagine that's why GUE took so long to introduce it into their curriculum. It might be a lot easier to just call someone a troll for asking questions that are hard to answer, but like TSandM said a few pages back, all choices should be able to be explained.

The answer is probably as simple as, "Rebreathers offer a large enough benefit to warrant changing standardization for certain dives, whereas changes like compass placement, AI wrist computers, and others are more insignificant changes of convenience." Which is fine, and a perfectly sensible explanation, but it still would mean DIR is no longer fully standardized. Much more standardized than any other style of diving, for sure, but not so black and white. The philosophy would be more like, "Standardization for all types of diving. Unless the change provides enough benefit to warrant."

I imagine use of helmets in certain cave systems for safety would fall under the same explanation.

 

[DaleC]

Oh don't be such a glass is half empty
(not you Vs)

Sometimes people not directly involved learn a lot from following these sorts of discussions and the participants may as well. They may have an a ha moment and get what dir is really about and decide to pursue it with the right mindset, or, they may have an a ha moment and get what it's about and decide not to pursue it but at least will be able to view further discussions from a more understanding (if that's the right word) POV.

That's what happened to me. I used to try and put my ideas through the dir ringer to see if they would come out clean. Like a jazz player arguing with a classical orchestra that their music is just as good. Then one day I just got it.. A ha! It is just as good, in it's own way, but it's still not classical music. Not to overwork the analogy but jazz loves to improvise, classical loves to refine. Put one in the other setting and they are generally confused or unhappy.

So I love jazz but understand classical and enjoy it for what it is, not what I want it to be. I will still argue concepts in the general forums if they are applied outside the regime but I just can't do it from within the system. Even with it's unique over emphasis and under emphasis on points it all makes sense and works.

Gareth's point about being able to dive with different people all over the world and knowing how they will behave and be configured ahead of time can't be ignored as a major major issue. I dive with unknowns as well but, because they are all not on the same page, I have had to reconfigure myself as a self reliant diver to mitigate risk. I simply couldn't dive the way I was taught in my initial ow course (even if I were skilled) because I could not predict how anyone else would dive/react. A system predicated on relying on buddies, when those buddies are unreliable, is dangerous.

For me, part of that process was putting my ideas through a proven system to see if they were sound ie. running my ideas through the dir ringer. It's not a bad idea in some ways, though it might more appropriately be called the Hogarthian test and that is what I sort of see happening here. Of course, the test isn't really that valid here because it misses most of what makes dir actually safe, the mindset, not the equipment but the intent was honest enough.

In reality there are only two pathways for safety: either dive with like minded divers or dive in a way that does not rely on like minded divers. Part of that decision is based on personality type, location, overall diving goals/interests, availability and finance. Either you are more inclined to one path or the other.