Will http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/25525213 change deco procedures?

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Talking about REAL science!
You kept repeating the same accusation but yet to produce any evidence to substantiate it! Don't you think it is about time that you put money where your mouth is?

I don't have anything to prove. It is Simon and co who have the "new" science, and the "new ideas". Its their job to prove their position.

So far, on the nedu stop test, they have been unable to show a valid science connection. They know it of course, and instead confuse and hide behind an endless amounts of fluff, smoke and mirrors, marketing, stretched out rubbish and fabrications, trolls, etc.

The tiny bit of science offered by Simon (here) has been shown to be invalid, using their very own math formula, and basic decompression theory.


So please stop ridiculing me, and please stop automatically assuming Simon is right on everything, and take a hard look at the trail of rubbish and destruction, and fakerry he leaves behind.
 
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The science being discussed results from US Navy research. You are saying that US Navy research and results lack scientific rigor? And you are saying this based on what? Your background in programming for a commercial product?

Rossh, in any of the threads scattered over the internet regarding either the NEDU study or the more recent trimix vs heliox study you have shown an apparent lack of understanding of scientific methodology. Given the decompression program you are selling this is alarming.

Clearly you are not a scientist. These ad hominem attacks on scientists doing actual studies on decompression such as David Doolette and Simon Mitchell don't reflect well on you. There is a concept called projection in psychology where a person puts their own qualities, fears and beliefs onto others, which seems like what you are doing. The more you continue in this vein the less credible you look.
 
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Clearly you are not a scientist. These ad hominem attacks on scientists doing actual studies on decompression such as David Doolette and Simon Mitchell don't reflect well on you.

They also show a deep and profound lack of understanding of the difference between a scientific debate - which, admittedly, sometimes can become very heated - and a tabloid media "discussion" or a bar room brawl which far too often degenerates into ad hominems and/or "he said, she said" arguments. The former type still has a certain basis in the facts being discussed, the latter... not so much.
 
So, I'm not the only one with fundamental concerns as to the nature of this dispute.

Guys, Please. Rate your approaches to decompression modeling in two categories on a 1 to 10 scale:

Deterministic vs. Probabilistic.

Deterministic versus probabilistic is tangential to the debate, which has been about empirical comparison of different schedules, in the case of the trimix study the schedules compared had the same stops and times but the breathing gases were different – how the stops and times were arrived at does not really matter. However, in case anyone is interested…

First thing to appreciate is that there is a difference between a model, which is the description of a system, and an algorithm which is a method of controlling the system via the model. For instance, in a deterministic gas content algorithm like the ZH-L16 decompression algorithm, the model is the gas uptake and washout in a collection of compartments. This model is meant to represent DCS-sites in the human body. The model input is a dive profile (depth/breathing gas history) and the output is the point-in-time compartment gas pressures. The deterministic algorithm is the control of the maximum allowed supersaturation in these compartments by specification of a safe ascent depth (using “a” and “b” values or “m-values&#8221:wink: for those point-in-time gas pressures.

The fundamental difference between deterministic and probabilistic algorithms is the output of the underlying model. Probabilistic decompression models estimate the probability of DCS (PDCS) from a dive profile. The probabilistic models are typically much like the models underlying decompression algorithms, in that bubble volume and/or gas supersaturation in a collection of compartments is calculated from the dive profile. However, they have an additional step in that PDCS is calculated from the bubble volume or gas supersaturation history. This PDCS could be a function of the maximum point-in-time supersaturation or maximum bubble volume, but typically, because it results in much better estimates, PDCS is a function of the time-integral of supersaturation or bubble volume over the whole dive profile. A probabilistic decompression algorithm evaluates candidate schedules searching for an optimum schedule. This optimum can be one of two things: 1) the lowest estimated PDCS for a specified total decompression time or 2) the shortest total decompression time that results in a target PDCS.

Another difference between deterministic decompression algorithms and probabilistic decompression models is how the parameters (e.g. half-times, m-values etc.) are chosen. A deterministic algorithm is usually developed by trial and error. Schedules are produced from a trial set of parameters and then some of those schedules are man-tested. If the incidence of DCS is too high, a more conservative set of parameters is used to generate a new set of schedules and these are man-tested, and so on. To calibrate a probabilistic decompression model (and in this case it is the underlying model, not the algorithm), dive profiles with known DCS outcome (usually historical data from previous traditional decompression trials) are used as model input and the model parameters (for instance compartment half-times, tissue gas permeabilities at the bubble surface) are adjusted, using formal statistical methods, to get the closest fit to the outcome data. As on oversimplification, if the calibration database was comprised of dive profile A dived 100 times with one DCS and profile B dived 100 times with 20 DCS, the best model parameters will those that result in PDCS estimate for profile A closest to 1% PDCS and estimate for profile B closest to 20%. Typical calibration data sets are larger, do not need to have duplicates of the same profile (but usually do), and should have about 10 DCS cases for every estimated parameter. Just to clarify a misconception, once he model is calibrated, the database is no longer required.

No 1-10 rating, but some advantages of the probabilistic approach over the deterministic are:

Probabilitic models can be calibrated with existing data, without conducting new trials ( although validation trials are still a good idea).

Probabilistic models are a purer embodiment of the information in the calibration data.

Probabilistic models can be used to estimate PDCS and therefore evaluate any dive profile, for instance something downloaded from a dive computer or a schedule prescribed by any algorithm.

Probabilistic algorithms are more flexible. A good example is handling a missed stop. A deterministic algorithm has no way to handle a missed stop, it can either pretend you are at the missed stop or calculate a new, shorter schedule based on the greater gradient for gas washout at the shallower stop - neither is the best answer. A probabilistic algorithm could give you the PDCS estimate if you continue on the remainder of the original schedule or calculate a new schedule at the original target PDCS.

David Doolette
 
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Since we're repeating things then I'll repeat my question as well.. Does this new research mean that we should be doubting the utility of current decompression models? R..

My comments are based on the assumption that you've seen the importance of the NEDU deep stop study.

Applying the NEDU deep stop study will involve some technique of reallocating time away from deep stops. Consider the following ways you might do that.

1. Switch to the GF model - the analysis on the deep stop threads clearly showed that the GF model effectively shifts time away from VPM-like deep stops no matter what configuration you use it in. Mitchell/Doolette put out GF 40/70 as a good starting point for divers to start reviewing their dives. Diver's will undoubtedly adjust those settings to meet their needs.

My view is that the NEDU deep stop study was strong enough to bust VPM-B. Given X minutes of decompression time, VPM just spreads too much of that time deep. Take that same X minutes and find GF 40/Z and you will have effectively reflected the NEDU result. Extend the deco time if your X minutes pushes Z into high numbers (95, 100+ etc.). Of course, you can still safely use VPM-B, but it's likely inefficient. That is, if you use VPM-B you likely need MORE total decompression time, not less, to obtain the same DCS risk.

2. If you are hesitant to make the switch (you are still on the fence) -- Again, if you have X minutes of deco … consider spreading the time using VPM-B+0 and Hi GF=Z. By doing this you're effectively telling VPM, "I'll let you spread some of the time around, but not ALL of it." The GF=Z takes the remainder of the time and puts it into shallower stops.

3. If you currently use the GF model -- consider increasing your low GF to 40.

The GF model is just naturally more consistent with the NEDU results.
Other models that I've haven't looked into may reflect the NEDU study just as well.

 
Deterministic versus probabilistic is tangential to the debate ...//...
Understood, but knowing this now makes the debate so much easier to understand as there seem to be complex personal sensitivities to an otherwise simple debate.

I truly appreciate your post. Thank you.
 
Probabilistic algorithms are more flexible. A good example is handling a missed stop. A deterministic algorithm has no way to handle a missed stop, it can either pretend you are at the missed stop or calculate a new, shorter schedule based on the greater gradient for gas washout at the shallower stop - neither is the best answer. A probabilistic algorithm could give you the PDCS estimate if you continue on the remainder of the original schedule or calculate a new schedule at the original target PDCS.

David Doolette

Are there probabilistic algorithms that might make their way into a dive computer for tech diving use?
 
So, I have a paper on my computer that I think Simon published with someone else (not on my computer so I can't look it up) which showed inert gas solubility in aqueous and non-aqueous (higher fat content, bone, etc.) tissues. The solubility of N2 and He in the aqueous tissues was pretty similar, which would seem to support the idea that the kinetics of the two gasses should be similar for those tissues. I also have a recording of a presentation Simon gave (I think at RF 3.0, but again on said computer) which demonstrated the kinetics of N2 and He in a sheep or goat leg muscle, and showed that the two gasses behaved similarly. So it seems science has been driving us in this direction for a while.

Is the significance of David's study, which I don't have access to but which I would love to read if someone has a copy (m@mguerrero.net), that it demonstrates this using manned tests? And that the N2 times might not be conservative enough?

Also, I think it is appropriate for a particular group of divers to at least reconsider their practices based on what has been discussed here. That is the group of people who do not program their He content into their deco software/computers because they are trying to avoid the He "penalty".
 
Is the significance of David's study, which I don't have access to but which I would love to read if someone has a copy (m@mguerrero.net), that it demonstrates this using manned tests? And that the N2 times might not be conservative enough?

Also, I think it is appropriate for a particular group of divers to at least reconsider their practices based on what has been discussed here. That is the group of people who do not program their He content into their deco software/computers because they are trying to avoid the He "penalty".

See here for the heliox trimix comparison study.
 
Understood, but knowing this now makes the debate so much easier to understand as there seem to be complex personal sensitivities to an otherwise simple debate.

This is exactly correct. The "complex personal sensitivities" arise because I am the only member of the science community who willingly steps in to stop Ross taking every opportunity to trash good science on internet forums. I therefore become the lightning rod for his "behaviour" which is well illustrated on this thread. Make no mistake, it is not a debate between Ross and I, it is a debate between Ross and a wider group of diving scientists who are actually performing this work. I have every confidence that if I misrepresented them, they (including David) would step in and say so.

Simon M
 
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