Today's OW Course

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Scuba Diver is NAUI's term for what PADI calls Open Water Diver. Likewise, what PADI calls Advanced Open Water, NAUI calls their equivalent Advanced Scuba Diver.

Of course, there's already a precedent for PADI and NAUI to use the same terms to mean different things (Master Diver and Divemaster, for example).

Yes, PADI SCUBA Diver is a diver who's restricted to 40 ft. and who must dive under the direct supervision of a DM or higher member. OW does not require supervision (equivalent to NAUI SCUBA Diver).

This comment was generated as a result of a discussion originating with PADI Basic/OW differences. Perhaps I was just in PADI mode when I posted that particular quote. You're right in-that it can get confusing when comparing inter-agency terminology, especially when you consider that there are more than just PADI and NAUI our there... Thanks. :)
 
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As to DM & Instructor qualifications: Even Bob (Grateful Diver) conceded that it isn't so much the agency standards that are the issue but the instructor's implementation of the standards. The question boiling down to the definition of 'mastery'.

Every agency intends that their OW graduate be qualified to dive in the conditions under which they were trained. It is up to the instructor to provide that training.

To that end, I don't see how a diver can be a DM at 60 dives. They barely know how to pee in a wetsuit with 60 dives! Heck, they could easily do the dives (20 for 20) in a week (are non-training dives per day limited?). Zero to hero in a month. All they would know is that particular dive site and only down to 20'. I'm thinking that a DM should have, perhaps, 500 dives in several different environments: Warm & clear, cold & dark, boat & beach, shallow & deep, day & night, calm & current. In other words, some experience.

For an instructor, I believe they should actually know how to dive. Maybe something on the order of 1000 dives on 3 or 4 continents. They should have some serious credentials. The idea that an instructor is qualified with merely 100 dives is nonsense.

In these cases, it is the agency's fault. The existing standards are far too low. But the good news to higher standards would be fewer instructors and a better job market for those that did get certified.

Ain't gonna happen...

Richard
 
As to DM & Instructor qualifications: Even Bob (Grateful Diver) conceded that it isn't so much the agency standards that are the issue but the instructor's implementation of the standards. The question boiling down to the definition of 'mastery'.

Every agency intends that their OW graduate be qualified to dive in the conditions under which they were trained. It is up to the instructor to provide that training.

To that end, I don't see how a diver can be a DM at 60 dives. They barely know how to pee in a wetsuit with 60 dives! Heck, they could easily do the dives (20 for 20) in a week (are non-training dives per day limited?). Zero to hero in a month. All they would know is that particular dive site and only down to 20'. I'm thinking that a DM should have, perhaps, 500 dives in several different environments: Warm & clear, cold & dark, boat & beach, shallow & deep, day & night, calm & current. In other words, some experience.

For an instructor, I believe they should actually know how to dive. Maybe something on the order of 1000 dives on 3 or 4 continents. They should have some serious credentials. The idea that an instructor is qualified with merely 100 dives is nonsense.

In these cases, it is the agency's fault. The existing standards are far too low. But the good news to higher standards would be fewer instructors and a better job market for those that did get certified.

Ain't gonna happen...

I don't disagree with all you're saying. I started another thread about this; perhaps you might like to contribute.
 
DCBC,

Fie on you, tut tut. Mea culpas' are in order :)

Just thought (since this is in the basic scuba forum) that potential divers considering NAUI, might confuse the 'scuba diver' tag for the suggested 'dive with instructor only' level with NAUI's proper first cert. See? Even expressing it is confusing - what a horrible sentence!
 
DCBC,

Fie on you, tut tut. Mea culpas' are in order :)

Just thought (since this is in the basic scuba forum) that potential divers considering NAUI, might confuse the 'scuba diver' tag for the suggested 'dive with instructor only' level with NAUI's proper first cert. See? Even expressing it is confusing - what a horrible sentence!

All true. I think I need a coffee... :coffee:
 
rstofer, I agree with you regarding number of dives, types of dives for DM, Instructor. I have 148 and am in DM training. I'm sure much more experience would be better. However, it may not be possible for someone who lives in say a "warm, clear" water location to do any diving in a "cold, dark" area-- or vice versa. Likewise it's probably unlikely a candidate for Instructor will be able to dive on 3 or 4 continents. Then again, I guess if you're rich....
 
Well, I have just spent a few hours wading through 20 pages of discussion and it seems none of us really know what's going on in today's OW course except maybe in our own small sphere of knowledge, and some obviously don't even know that much.

I have to say I am one of the lucky ones. Even the much derided PADI standards are allowing me to turn out happy comfortable divers who could dive with each other in conditions similar to their OW training on their first dive after said certification. My employers have nearly all wanted me to complete every OW course in 20-22 hours but they have accepted my average of 24-26 hours because my customers are so satisfied with the course. Well, that and the fact that most of my employers have either paid by the head or salary, not hourly. :)

One of my employers was livid when I would tell prospective Intro participants that I thought they needed to have successfully snorkeled in the ocean first, he was apoplectic when I told prospective OW students it would take about 32 hours of their time to complete the course (~8 hours to really read book, watch video and complete homework) and he was mortified when I told him I refused to certify a couple students because they always took completely full inhalation/exhalations on every breath. He got over the last one when I continued with the fact that I made them pay $75 each for a 5th training dive where they did control their buoyancy with proper breath control and they thanked me for doing it.

Since my training conditions are beautiful, warm, clear, calm sub-tropical ocean (for the most part) I do see how other areas of the world might not be so easy a place to train divers.

It is pretty silly to try to answer the question of the OP with any statistic that seems to exist on the subject of diving. There are way too many unknowns with regards to every stat I've ever seen in print, and even more unknowns for the one's I've only heard. For instance; perhaps the reason only 25% of recreational divers seek continuing education is because the instructors are giving the divers enough training in the OW course. :coffee:

When I chose to learn a new activity I usually have some stored images of experts doing that activity at the highest level. I go into my training intending to quickly perform near that proficiency level. I have met very few other people who are so consumed with mastering activities. I believe it is highly likely that most recreational scuba instructors are training their students to a higher level of diving skills than we all see the masses displaying on the popular dive sites. Most of these infrequent divers really don't care to dive the way they were taught to dive, because that would require using grey matter and taking responsibility for themselves.

It's kind of like the cigarette smokers you see with their arm hanging out the car window. You know they know better, but most of them seem to just flick that butt into the street or gutter anyway. :shakehead:
 
Well, I have just spent a few hours wading through 20 pages of discussion and it seems none of us really know what's going on in today's OW course except maybe in our own small sphere of knowledge, and some obviously don't even know that much.

I have to say I am one of the lucky ones. Even the much derided PADI standards are allowing me to turn out happy comfortable divers who could dive with each other in conditions similar to their OW training on their first dive after said certification. My employers have nearly all wanted me to complete every OW course in 20-22 hours but they have accepted my average of 24-26 hours because my customers are so satisfied with the course. Well, that and the fact that most of my employers have either paid by the head or salary, not hourly. :)

One of my employers was livid when I would tell prospective Intro participants that I thought they needed to have successfully snorkeled in the ocean first, he was apoplectic when I told prospective OW students it would take about 32 hours of their time to complete the course (~8 hours to really read book, watch video and complete homework) and he was mortified when I told him I refused to certify a couple students because they always took completely full inhalation/exhalations on every breath. He got over the last one when I continued with the fact that I made them pay $75 each for a 5th training dive where they did control their buoyancy with proper breath control and they thanked me for doing it.

Good for you! Maybe it should be an additional skill required for the instructor course - bolshieness :)

J
 
... Most of these infrequent divers really don't care to dive the way they were taught to dive, because that would require using grey matter and taking responsibility for themselves.

From what I've seen, this seems to be a big part of the problem.

How many people practice any of the basic life saving skills they were taught in OW? At a local dive site there was a tragedy involving an "experienced" diver who SAFELY made it to surface after a problem, did NOT establish any level of bouyancy, started to sink and never ditched their weight.
I've witnessed divers with OW and AOW certifications who haven't dove in the last 12 months begin setting up their gear backwards but refuse to take a refresher course...

Are these from a lack of agency standards? Bad instruction? I'm not saying there aren't bad instructors, I'm not saying the agencies have the standards spot on (I don't know enough to comment on either). What I am saying is that ALL divers have a shared responsibility for their OWN skill and knowledge level. Maybe this is a naive statement but...

Peace
 
From what I've seen, this seems to be a big part of the problem.

How many people practice any of the basic life saving skills they were taught in OW? At a local dive site there was a tragedy involving an "experienced" diver who SAFELY made it to surface after a problem, did NOT establish any level of bouyancy, started to sink and never ditched their weight.
I've witnessed divers with OW and AOW certifications who haven't dove in the last 12 months begin setting up their gear backwards but refuse to take a refresher course...

Are these from a lack of agency standards? Bad instruction? I'm not saying there aren't bad instructors, I'm not saying the agencies have the standards spot on (I don't know enough to comment on either). What I am saying is that ALL divers have a shared responsibility for their OWN skill and knowledge level. Maybe this is a naive statement but...

Peace

I'm trying to relate diving to another activity within the same context e.g. a climber coming back to the sport after a period of inactivity. It's typically a no brainer, the skills learned (certainly from my perspective) might be slightly rusty but they haven't gone away MAINLY cos they were well taught in the first place. For me it was my father so I can't make any statements about learning to climb via an agency.

However, for too many people I've seen, their skill levels were simply never there in the first place. OW is genuinely a license to learn for most people I've come across. These, in fairness, have been vacation divers.

Refreshers are a great idea but it's a sad compensation for decent well learned skills in the first place.

Just my two p.

J
 
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