Why do we hate the Air2?

[DevonDiver]

FAs for donee was new but we got through it This statement cut to the core of it. The donee was new but the donor was experienced and practiced.

So, you are saying that, at least, one member of a buddy team has to be at expert/pro level, to assure a safe ascent with an AIRII ?

No matter the choice staying calm, having training and experience is what really makes the difference.

So, where does that leave a newly qualified and/or naturally apprehensive diver?

Are you saying that AIRII should be avoided by divers who might panic if they use one?

In extreme it may be safer to allow a panicked diver to nearly drown and perform recessitation on the surface.

Hardly a great advert for AIRII.... of which one of my concerns is that it is liable to increase stress/panic.

It's a kit that works well for most OW dive profiles. It is a great solution for most OW dive profiles but each diver should be confortable in their gear selection.

And yet so many divers are stating that they aren't comfortable with an AIRII.

They should be aware of its design and use limitations and most of all if it fits their needs.

When compared to a standard AAS, that doesn't have 'any' limitations?

When a diver states they feel they can not turn their head while using one then the proper course of action is trying a longer BC hose and/or a more flexible or longer inflator hose if this doesn't resolve their problem then the standard octo may be a better choice for them.

I thought the only reason for using an AIRII was to reduce hoses. Now you are saying the LPI/AAS hose has to be longer (for the donor) and the primary hose has to be longer (for the victim).

That kinda seems to defeat the purpose?!?

Venting without removing it from your mouth is possible in a number of ways dependant on your BC configuration. As mentioned in this thread the pull dump in the BC elbow if equipped with one. Some BCD have a pull dump in the other shoulder also.

And if they don't?

Even if they do have a surplus of convenient dumps... it's a lot of multi-tasking for the donor, who is also maintaining contact with the victim, judging ascent rates, dealing with stress etc etc

Nearly every BC has a rear/lower pull dump which can be used if you are in a horizontal position.

Which you won't be in, because you are using an AIRII.

With practice a horizontal position can even be maintained on a short primary hose during a nice slow ascent.

Wishful thinking. At a pro level maybe... but for a newly graduated OW student, or occasional holiday diver....

As I said in an earlier post, it is unfair to merit the debate based on your own capabilities, if you are a seasoned, pro-level diver.

Even with the integrated in your mouth while in a heads up position you can just press the vent button half way and vent the BCD while exhaling gently and release the button to purge and finish your exhale.

You mentioned panic before. Are you aware of the sort of stresses that cause novice divers to panic?

 

[danvolker]

`

Scott since you decided to quote me and then highlight selected segments from all over the place I take on your trash talk straightforwardly. First you highly does not breathe as well Other on this thread have already stated that having them breath as well as any average mainstream second stage is just a matter of having them set properly to do so. I can tell you that is a factual statement as I have both mine and my wifes set to breath as well as my pony bottle reg which is a non-adjustable second stage reg. I wouldn't ask any of these to breathe as well as a user adjustable second stage. Maybe the next gen of integrated octo will be user adjustable but I don't think that is necessary. Breathing quality can be adjusted to be adequate on the majority of models available today.

As for donee was new but we got through it This statement cut to the core of it. The donee was new but the donor was experienced and practiced. No matter the choice staying calm, having training and experience is what really makes the difference. Also the most experienced diver may not be able to handle a panicked diver regardless of the gear choice. In extreme it may be safer to allow a panicked diver to nearly drown and perform recessitation on the surface.

And you final highlight ... It's a kit that works well for most OW dive profiles. Just as a wing with 60 lbs lift wouldn't be used for diving a a tropical reef but could be the integrated Octo is best used for certain configurations. It is a great solution for most OW dive profiles but each diver should be confortable in their gear selection. They should be aware of its design and use limitations and most of all if it fits their needs.

When a diver states they feel they can not turn their head while using one then the proper course of action is trying a longer BC hose and/or a more flexible or longer inflator hose if this doesn't resolve their problem then the standard octo may be a better choice for them.

Venting without removing it from your mouth is possible in a number of ways dependant on your BC configuration. As mentioned in this thread the pull dump in the BC elbow if equipped with one. Some BCD have a pull dump in the other shoulder also. Nearly every BC has a rear/lower pull dump which can be used if you are in a horizontal position. With practice a horizontal position can even be maintained on a short primary hose during a nice slow ascent. Even with the integrated in your mouth while in a heads up position you can just press the vent button half way and vent the BCD while exhaling gently and release the button to purge and finish your exhale.

Rabbit, I think the REAL problem many of us have with the AIR II's is not the potential to be able to be used well by an experienced diver with practice on them----Our problem is that with the TYPICAL way these AIR II's are purchased by a new diver, there is NO special training, No special discussion of the drills the new diver should perform to make air sharing with it comfortable in all OOA scenarios, and it seems like there is no discussion from the AIR II lovers about creating a special AIR II Training program....

The key thing that YOU as an experienced AIR II diver keep forgetting , is that most of the BOW universe of students, have been taught to breathe their primary, and if they have to donate, to donate their octopus ( and the mindset is practically defend the primary--keep it in your own mouth so you dont get killed by the OOA diver)....There IS a fear issue here, and the idea of buddy breathing has not had the best track record in my mind, for being dealt with properly....Back in the 70's, when I was certified, all divers had to demonstrate not just proficiency, but good comfort levels doing an air share with a single 2nd stage reg being passed back and forth. Somewhere in the 80's or so, that was seen as a huge bottleneck that was limiting who could be a scuba diver, and how many students could be handled in a class.

The Alternate second stage was a major boon to the industry, and initially, agencies did a great job with it.. But in the last decade, I do not believe most students have done much of practicing air shares for OOA or for "low on air" ( which is even more likely to occur). The concept of practice for the skill has been lost....They do not do air share drills.....

The Air II charicturizes the mistakes in adding new gear for students....It's "best use" requires a "different proceedure" than the training the students recieved, and their comfort level is usually not that high even doing what they are trained to do....


I have been on many charter boats, where a diver with either a dozen or 50 dives or so will look over at my DIR long hose, and ask WHY? When I explain the way we do airshares...almost always they are shocked we would WANT to take the reg out of our mouth that we are breathing!!!

So many are afraid to remove the reg in their mouth, I see a massive requirement for re-training if these new divers are to safely utuilize the air II system.

At least with the DIR system, there are thousands of threads explaining the how to's of DIR air share, and you have DIR divers constantly practicing air shares and using air shares for Low on air scenarios routinely..which is great for the skills....we see NONE of this with Air II use, which is far less intuitive than the DIR system.

I used Air II's with Scubapro Stab Jackets in the early 90's... I would have been absolutely safe sharing with them, but I was frequently annoyed by the way the Air II would get hung up when I was "belly to the bottom" going upcurrent for a lobster hotel, or any number of other scenarios where it was a poor configuration for ADVANCED diving. Still the biggest issue is no formal training and no frequent airshare drilling for Air II users.

 

[Sat Diver]

excellent and well thought out points by Dan Volker. I have never seen an Air2. It sounds like a great idea, but I understand where the problems Dan talks about could come into play.

 

[BDSC]

and it seems like there is no discussion from the AIR II lovers about creating a special AIR II Training program

But is that really necessary? A special training program to use an AIR II? Just how complicated does anyone need to make this?

How about this. A guy comes into a dive shop to buy some gear and decides to buy a bc system with and AIR II even though he has never used one. The shop owner simply tells that person that the one thing he needs to do differently with this system is, if he is faced with a buddy who is OOA, then he would need to donate his primary to the OOA diver and then breathe off his AIR II. Maybe he could suggest the person practice that one time with a buddy at a pool or on his next dive trip. All this would be about what.......a 10 to 15 minute investment in time.

Of course the shop owner would actually need to remember to tell the diver this info but what more would need to be done. It's really pretty basic stuff it seems.

 

[EastTNDiver]

excellent and well thought out points by Dan Volker. I have never seen an Air2. It sounds like a great idea, but I understand where the problems Dan talks about could come into play.

I'll say it again...all the "problems" to which Dan refers has to do with training, not the gear. There is really no "specialized" training needed to properly use an AirII. My son was trained using an AirII, and it was literally "give the OOA diver your primary, and breathe the AirII". At 13 years of age, it was simply a no-brainer for him, and was pretty much the extent of training he needed. He could have been told that over the counter, and would have still been ok with its use. The same points Dan makes about an AirII could also be made about using a 7' hose. Are we to condemn that configuration as well? The same point can be made for almost any piece of gear out there if just handed to a new diver and wished "good luck". I see fabricated, imaginary what-if's being proposed left and right in here in an attemtp to denegrate the AirII, along with a few supposed advanced divers making up horror stories about how difficult they imagine an AirII is to use in a given scenario...and again, I just have to LMAO, because evidently my 15-year old son is light years ahead of them if they would have so much trouble using such a simple piece of gear. Personally, I don't care what configuration any given diver chooses to dive, but a lot of the crap I've read in this thread is just plain balderdash.

 

[DevonDiver]

My son was trained using an AirII, and it was literally "give the OOA diver your primary, and breathe the AirII". At 13 years of age, it was simply a no-brainer for him, and was pretty much the extent of training he needed. He could have been told that over the counter, and would have still been ok with its use.

..and he has proven the validity of your assumptions exactly how many times, using this in a real situation with a real OOA diver??

I see fabricated, imaginary what-if's being proposed left and right in here in an attemtp to denegrate the AirII, along with a few supposed advanced divers making up horror stories about how difficult they imagine an AirII is to use in a given scenario...and again, I just have to LMAO,

Funny, because on the basis of my experience as a professional dive guide and instructor, I see nothing unrealistic in the scenarios presented here.

A quick glance through the BSAC and DAN accident reports would tend to reinforce many of those 'horror stories' about how stress loading, complicated procedures and other 'silly' factors regularly contribute to untimely demises.

... 15-year old son is light years ahead of them if they would have so much trouble using such a simple piece of gear. Personally, I don't care what configuration any given diver chooses to dive, but a lot of the crap I've read in this thread is just plain balderdash.

Balderdash, based on an assessment of your progeny's complete resistance to panic, over-tasking and dealing with genuine emergency situations...?

I'll ask you this... exactly how many genuine dive emergencies have you ever been involved in?

(I would assume a great many, given your confidence in rebutting the concerns of a number of highly experienced individuals who work in the industry and have a wide experience base dealing with divers of mixed ability ranges and who have all dealt with safety issues and emergency management as a part of their daily lives...)

 

[BDSC]

`

At least with the DIR system, there are thousands of threads explaining the how to's of DIR air share, and you have DIR divers constantly practicing air shares and using air shares for Low on air scenarios routinely..which is great for the skills....we see NONE of this with Air II use, which is far less intuitive than the DIR system.

But you are talking about DIR divers here. Yes, they probably practice air sharing on a regular basis but that has nothing to do with the choice of octos. It's because they, I guess, we taught to prctice...practice...practice...so as to be ready when a real event occurs. Right? I don't see how you can compare DIR divers and how they train or practice and then tie that back to divers who use an intergrated octo who don't practice. To me it's all a function of the divers mindset and not his/her equipment choice.

And I do agree with what you said about divers not practice air sharing drills. I know when my wife was certified I practiced with her once or twice when she became my regular dive buddy. But I don't know that I can say I have practiced it in the past three or four years. I have no doubt it would be better to practice it more but I just don't.

 

[charlesml3]

the shoulder dump is typically a very imprecise method of dumping air to maintain neutral buoyancy on ascent.

How precise do you need to be? Good grief, man. You're doing an ascent with an OOA diver. This isn't a situation that requires anything that resembles precision. Just get to the surface safely.

That worst case being two relatively novice divers, without expert buoyancy control, who are already at a psychological panic threshold.[/QUOTE

Fair enough. I just don't see how an octo-inflator makes the situation any worse.

stressful close proximity and physical contact with their buddy, whilst handling an ascent using unfamiliar methods (dump valves)... will put them at the outer limits of their psychological stress management threshold.

And it's also entirely possible that the panicked, novice diver would like having their buddy close. Have you seen one of these situations? Have you asked a novice OOA diver after on of these emergencies? I really think there are a lot of assumptions being made here.

the one extra unfamiliar factor that causes the emergence of panic.

Sure could. Just like having to search for your octo when it's under your chin instead of one of the more "standard" locations.

Venting without removing the mouth piece from mouth is posiable with pull dump that introduces a major failure point(O-ring & lots of plastic))

What in the world are you talking about? Look at your dive gear man. It's all "O-Rings and lots of plastic."

Ever dive in current? If on a line it will be much harder to hang on if you're vertical. If not on a line ascending vertically

You keep trying to make this convenient and it isn't about that. Just get the diver to the surface. The boat can come after you and your OOA diver once you're one the surface.

Do you want to swim horizontally or vertically?

There isn't going to be any swimming. We're headed up as quickly as we can safely do.

that safety/deco stops are best conducted horizontally from an off-gassing perspective

In an OOA situation I don't care how anyone off-gasses. This isn't about that. It's about getting up quickly and safely.

 

[EastTNDiver]

..and he has proven the validity of your assumptions exactly how many times, using this in a real situation with a real OOA diver??



Funny, because on the basis of my experience as a professional dive guide and instructor, I see nothing unrealistic in the scenarios presented here.

A quick glance through the BSAC and DAN accident reports would tend to reinforce many of those 'horror stories' about how stress loading, complicated procedures and other 'silly' factors regularly contribute to untimely demises.



Balderdash, based on an assessment of your progeny's complete resistance to panic, over-tasking and dealing with genuine emergency situations...?

I'll ask you this... exactly how many genuine dive emergencies have you ever been involved in?

(I would assume a great many, given your confidence in rebutting the concerns of a number of highly experienced individuals who work in the industry and have a wide experience base dealing with divers of mixed ability ranges and who have all dealt with safety issues and emergency management as a part of their daily lives...)

I'm not calling the scenarios balderdash, just the difficulty of using an AirII. My son practices air share in various scenarios, and he does not experience any of the difficulties proposed by those that don't use an AirII...trouble venting his BC during ascent while air sharing?...nope...difficulty in monitoring his guage data?...nope...any of the other difficulties imagined in this thread?...nope.

If people don't prefer the AirII, I don't blame them for having their preferences, but I do still call balderdash on it being a difficult piece of gear to use in OOA scenarios...for any level diver.

 

[mcguiver]

• Ever dive in current? A vertical diver presents more surface area to the current. If on a line it will be much harder to hang on if you're vertical. If not on a line ascending vertically will cause you to end up much further away than if horizontal into the current. Big problem if the boat you're returning to is tied-in.
• Suppose the point at which there is a problem is away from the ascent point, requiring a swim to the exit point/up line before surfacing? Do you want to swim horizontally or vertically?
• Suppose both of the two things listed above happen at the same time?
• There's evidence/school of though that suggests that safety/deco stops are best conducted horizontally from an off-gassing perspective since the entire body is at the same depth, and the same depth as your computer/depth gauge (At 15ft, a vertical 6ft tall diver can have a 25-33% depth difference between their head and toes. Do you want a 33% "margin of error" on a safety stop?)
• Availability of butt dump on BCD/wing to vent gas on ascent, which would be more than handy in an OOG situation. (Especially if you have an Air2 in your mouth.)

Some will say those are marginal/minimal/theoretical benefits, but I'd counter with the fact that they are no more marginal/minimal/theoretical than the "one less hose" benefit.

Suppose

You may want to re-word that, a diver in trim will drift Exactly the same speed as a vertical diver unless he happens to be kicking against the current. As for doing stops in a less than trim position being unsafe there is absolutely no physiological or scientific evidence to support that idea. "A 33% margine of error on a safety stop" by being out of trim!!?? are you for real?? you may want to do some thinking about that one. What I have seen so far in this thread is most of the people with more opinions than experience (ie. ten times as many internet posts as actual dives) seem to hate the Air2 and everything else that does not comply with DIR standards but can't seem to come up with a rational reason why.